| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 15:49:35
Hello:
I used to post here last winter. I'm doing real good. I feel moved to post again, because I have some renewed thoughts on dealing with anger.
Last winter I went through a list of all of the people who angered me throughout my life. I'd imagine myself telling them off and cursing them out. Eventually, thankfully, I realized that this wasn't doing much good, and instead chose to stop the blame game, take self responsibility, and found a way to get over the anger in a positive way.
I've found that if you engage in anger based fantasies, you just add to the reservoir of anger that exists within you. Therefore, you provide your childish mind with more ammunition.
Even though the childish part of our minds exist, this doesn't mean that we have to embrace it so much that it ends up taking control and we end up being a negative story line on the 5 o'clock news. Rather we can embrace the good part of ourselves, and take power away from the childish part of our mind.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 15:58:02
quote:
Originally posted by leonard
Miehnesor, the description of the parent and child both being in the unconscious and the parent's attempt to keep the emotions repressed really struck a chord with me. For the first time the anger which I've never beem able to access began showing itself at the unconscious parent which seems to be the dictator over the child. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly or not , but is the twofold approach you are presenting circumventing the unconscious parent by going to the child with love and understanding , thereby depriving the parent of his total control over the child ?
Yep by going directly to the child and inviting out the emotion nullifies the efforts of the parent to keep the childs feelings repressed if you can actually feel what the child has stashed away. Sarno talks about these different aspects of the unconscious. He refers to the adult, parent, and child whereas I just like to lump the adult and parent together as the instigator of TMS to keep the emotions repressed. I've based my recovery on getting to the feelings of the child because trying to get my parent to give up the TMS just didn't work for me at all. I have deep seaded issues that are too frightening to my unconscious parent and that parent was unwilling to let go of the TMS. Luckily there was this other option available to me otherwise I would be unhappy camper.
Hopefully Sarno will talk more about this more in his next book. |
| leonard |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 16:44:07
Curiosity , Thank you for your reply and explanation. My "event" was not planned but came up through heartfelt emotion.
Miehnesor, the description of the parent and child both being in the unconscious and the parent's attempt to keep the emotions repressed really struck a chord with me. For the first time the anger which I've never beem able to access began showing itself at the unconscious parent which seems to be the dictator over the child. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly or not , but is the twofold approach you are presenting circumventing the unconscious parent by going to the child with love and understanding , thereby depriving the parent of his total control over the child ? And then then conscious takes more power away from the unconscious parent by derision , scorn, or any weapon necessary?
I know I may not be describing this well , but I feel there is something very significant in what you conveyed.
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| miehnesor |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 14:50:52
Hilary,
"The New Primal Scream" by Janov is really an amazing read especially if you have undergone infant trauma as I have. I couldn't believe how many times my emotions where triggered by that book.
I still think however that most of TMS can be resolved with inner child work on even tough cases like mine but i'll have to check in with that hypothesis down the road. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 14:37:09
quote:
In my case, I think my repression mechanism is so strong that I'll never feel that stuff.
Moose, I know what you mean, I feel mine is very strong too, but don’t give up on it!
Miehnesor, I searched through old posts on Bradshaw and read your post where you put a link to this site:
http://www.primaltherapy.com/CORES/aptCore.htm
I found it fascinating!
Hilary N |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 11:16:35
You're welcome Hilary.
quote:
Originally posted by HilaryN
Albert,
Thanks very much for these posts – very interesting.
Miehnesor, I like what you’ve written as well, and I don’t see it as contradicting what Albert says. “Stewing” or “wallowing” in emotions is different from what you’re describing. I see “stewing” as reliving the emotions but somehow being trapped in them and not being able to move on, whereas you are perhaps reliving the emotions but also releasing them by doing so.
Recently I’ve been trying to fully experience some emotions (because I don’t want them causing me problems later on) but I think I’ve only succeeded in “stewing”.
Leonard, what you’ve described sounds good. I didn’t fully understand your question or why you should think it might not be a good thing, but surely your positive experience speaks for itself. Don’t let your doubting mind take over.
Hilary N
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| narny24 |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 08:55:45
Moose i tried to meditate that way and it worked! To my surprise i felt a sense of peace with warm feeling in my chest. |
| moose1 |
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 07:26:42
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity18
Your meditation sounds really interesting. About how long do you spend in it? Also what, if any technique do you use to get into that state of communicating with yourself?
curiosity,
i tried posting a response last night but i think the page timed out. Sorry for the rambling nature of this reply.
anyway, basically i sit for about 20 minutes a night and practice what's known as insight, or Vippassana, meditation. This is a very simple (but not easy) style of mindfulness practice. (A great nuts and bolts book for novices like myself is called "Mindfulness In Plain English" by Henepola Gunaratana. It's a great how-to manual for people like me who just want the basics and don't plan on becoming a Buddhist or spending 3 hours a day meditating at the base of a Tibetan mountain.)
Insight meditation is in many ways exactly like Sarno's approach: thinking about yourself and your place in the world and among those close to you in an honest and accurate way, with the goal of getting beyond the layers of illusion we create about ourselves as a result of distorted, inaccurate thinking and living in a society that is, in many ways, totally superficial. You do this by sitting, focusing on the breath, and simply noticing your thoughts and feelings, especially ALL the really bad, crazy, nasty, ugly, violent, sexual, reptilian stuff that we think can't possibly be part of who we are and just noting them objectively as part of being a human. So I do this with respect to my TMS stuff for about 5-8 minutes during my 20 minute session, then for the rest of the time I focus on the breath, which ain't easy by the way. It's really a cognitive exercise more than anything: trying to focus on something while noticing, but not labeling or judging, the endless torrent of images, sounds, thoughts, feelings, and impulses that are going on at the time. For me, it's like there's a dozen TVs in my head, all tuned to a different, really annoying station, and blasting full volume. So I try to focus on my breath while observing that chaos on the other side of the fence. The upshot of this exercise is that you begin to see reality is it really is, and not through the layer of nonsense that's been built up in your mind as a result of how you think things are. Somehow, this eases the mind's need to do nasty things, like create awful TMS symptoms.
Meditation is by no means some epiphanal panacea that gives you sudden burts of insight and truth, accompanied by angelic choruses. It's really hard work and takes serious discipline, especially during times when it's the last thing you want to do. The changes take time and are often very subtle.
So that what's worked for me. Hope this helps.
Moose |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 21:09:29
quote:
Originally posted by leonard
My question is , I know this child is a very important part of me, but is mending the opposition that exists between the two forces a correct or viable approach ? Most of what I have read postulates a need to " take control " over the unconscious consciously , so I'm not certain if this event has any significance or not. My bodymind says yes, and that I should continue, but it might help me if some of you can give me your opinion. Thank you.
Leonard- Your post was really uplifting and I agreed with Curiosity's comments wholeheartedly.
I have no idea if this is really accurate but I like to think of the unconscious in two parts- the parent part (which is well described by Moose's adjectives) and the child part which has all the fear and rage that is threatening to the parent. For the parent part It seems that we must take control consciously to challenge and confront the process whereby the parent designs TMS to deal with the childs emotions. Albert's approach seems like a good one for the parent.
For the child part I see a very different approach which is to be gentle, loving, accepting, and validating of the emotions that he harbors. For the child letting go of control is the best approach. I believe this approach helps drive these emotions to consciousness and thwarts the parents designs. When you did your meditation you provided that care to the inner child and the emotions burst forth frustrating the parents design to keep the emotion repressed.
I like this two prong attack on the TMS beast so I agree with you Hilary that what i'm saying and Albert is saying are not conflicting in this sense. |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 14:18:53
Moose,
I'm so glad that your morning symptoms are improving, and that you're not buying into them as they move to other areas. I also don't believe that the anger ever entirely goes away, and like you, I'm unable to "just let it go." I like your approach in just noticing your anger when it comes up Your meditation sounds really interesting. About how long do you spend in it? Also what, if any technique do you use to get into that state of communicating with yourself?
Thanks for your post,
curiosity |
| moose1 |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 11:49:23
quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
I'm not stewing in my own anger at all. What i'm doing is totally relaxing in meditation and going through a guided imagry that spontaneously brings up repressed fear...
Hi all,
This is really interesting. I began meditating about 6 months ago simply as a means to bring more focus to bear on my TMS work (going over my possible sources or rage, the timeline of my symptoms, talking to my brain, etc.). At the time, my life was literally consumed by low back pain which, while usually lasting all day, was at its worst first thing in the morning. As many folks here know, waking up in pain every day of your life is really very awful. I posted about this here many times. It wasn't until I brought really intense focus on my mind via meditation, and got really, truly honest with myself, that the morning back pain got significantly better...and this was after trying everything else for three miserable years.
But when I meditate, I never actually feel any repressed feelings as far as I can tell. In my case, I think my repression mechanism is so strong that I'll never feel that stuff. However, since getting some control of the low back pain, I've been struggling, on and off, with anxiety, fatigue, intense brain fog, some minor eczema, and nighttime panic attacks. Is this all a coincidence? I know better than to buy that lie. Still, it takes hard work to keep your foot on the neck of the beast.
Sometimes I wish I could feel the repressed emotions, if for nothing else than to actually know what the hell they are instead of just guessing. But, having had some success with the morning low back pain I know I'm at least in the neighborhood, barking up the right tree for once.
I guess my main point is that TMS..also known to me as intense, repressed emotions resulting in/requiring real physiological and chemical changes in the body and brain...is just about the most tenacious, stubborn, conniving, lying, cowardly bastard you could ever hope to deal with. It's easy to let down your guard when you start seeing results. Beware of that. I'm convinced that the anger never really goes away, but when you change your attitude about it, its power can be lessened a lot. The idea of "letting go" works for some people...not for me. Sometimes I'll think of someone who had hurt me in the past, and instead of pretending to let go, I simply observe, without judgment, that I still, for whatever reason, harbor some serious loathing toward that person. I make a note of it..."hey, look at that, I'm still really pissed at that person. Whaddya know" and move on, which may be a form of letting go. It's actually pretty effective.
Best,
Moose |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 16:47:03
Leonard,
Wow! What a powerful experience. Like Hillary, I hope that you don't doubt the validity of this for a minute. As a psychotherapist, this is ideally what I strive for in working with clients (as well as with myself). By communicating with, and unconditionally accepting your younger self you are moving toward wholeness and integration. I would think that your approach seems consistent with TMS theory. First you are acknowledging that this enraged child part of you exists, that you are totally accepting of him being there, but that as the adult, you are going to be in charge of things. And as the adult who lovingly embraces his child, you are allowing as much freedom freedom as is appropriate.
As I understand TMS theory, we need to acknowledge and accept that we have this reservoir of rage/maximum security prison made up of childhood impulses/unruly inmates. And since we need to accept and acknowledge this, we must not not ignore/deny/repress/ deny these impulses/undesirable feelings anymore. But as the adult, we're also going to be in control of the situation, i.e. not giving in to TMS symptoms, nor expressing anger in impulsive, destructive ways.
It seems that by cultivating this relationship with your inner child, you are allowing for a gentle, but controlled safety valve for this reservoir of rage pressure cooker! I would think that TMS symptoms would then lose their purpose and fade away- just like you experienced.
I would be very interested in hearing about your continued progress. It really sounds like you're on the right track!
Curiosity |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 12:44:26
Albert,
Thanks very much for these posts – very interesting.
Miehnesor, I like what you’ve written as well, and I don’t see it as contradicting what Albert says. “Stewing” or “wallowing” in emotions is different from what you’re describing. I see “stewing” as reliving the emotions but somehow being trapped in them and not being able to move on, whereas you are perhaps reliving the emotions but also releasing them by doing so.
Recently I’ve been trying to fully experience some emotions (because I don’t want them causing me problems later on) but I think I’ve only succeeded in “stewing”.
Leonard, what you’ve described sounds good. I didn’t fully understand your question or why you should think it might not be a good thing, but surely your positive experience speaks for itself. Don’t let your doubting mind take over.
Hilary N |
| leonard |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 11:26:05
I was going to post this a couple of days ago , but decided not to, for I thought it not of interest or help to others. It seems that acknowledging and/ or feeling repressed emotions has been the major emphasis of the TMS approach , or at least in my limited understanding of it. I have not had much success at doing so , especially tapping or feeling my repressed rage at more then an intellectual level. I must add however, my pain symtoms are much improved , and my main nemisis now is anxiety which seems to show up on a daily basis.
After reading miehnesor's latest post , and being affected by it , I wanted to relay my experience from 4 days ago and ask the forum members what they think happened.
I was feeling quite anxious and tired that afternoon , and I layed down on the floor. I started doing some abdominal breathing and began to talk to the child in me. I told him that I was sorry I had put so much pressure on him by attempting to be so perfect. I told him that he was a good boy , and I understood his difficulties and most of all that I loved him. I cried with him for a long time , letting him know that I knew that he just wanted to have fun and knew of all the crap he had to contend with. I also told him that I had to be in control, but I would try to let him be free as much as possible. When it was over , all my anxiety was gone and the whole afternoon and evening was absolutely wonderful ! The next day my conscious mind began doubting, questioning , faulting what had happened and I managed to return back to where I was before this event.
My question is , I know this child is a very important part of me, but is mending the opposition that exists between the two forces a correct or viable approach ? Most of what I have read postulates a need to " take control " over the unconscious consciously , so I'm not certain if this event has any significance or not. My bodymind says yes, and that I should continue, but it might help me if some of you can give me your opinion. Thank you.
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| miehnesor |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 18:20:45
quote:
Originally posted by kdw
Miehnesor: I'm interested in knowing more about the type of meditation you do. Are you doing it with a therapist? Can you share the technique with us? I have been trying to tap into repressed anger by dealing as deeply as I can with conscious anger, simply because I don't know what else to do. I have also been taking notice of the things I find myself "thinking" about unconsciously during the course of my day, and forcing myself to journal about those things whether I think they really bother me or not. I have found that by doing this, I am angry about a lot of things I honestly didn't think I was angry about. This is as close as I've come to finding repressed anger. I have gotten A LOT better as a result, but I feel I still don't have a handle on my anger issues.
KDW- First of all there is really no way of knowing from my standpoint what is the best approach for you wrt reducing TMS. Albert's approach I think works for most cases so I think you may want to look at that approach first as it is probably not as long a process as accessing repressed emotion.
Wrt my situation first and foremost it was absolutely essential that I got a good therapist to do this work- one that I felt safe (or rather the emotional childlike part felt safe) to have feelings. The visualization I use is one I started with almost a year and a half ago but i've found it necessary to do it with the therapist as a witness for the full strength of the emotion to come out.
I use a modified Bradshaw returning home imagry. I've written about this before in the archives but will quickly repeat. Basically the idea is that the adult grown up me goes back in time driving all the country roads to the house that I lived as a child to get the child. After a series of deep breathing I start in a kitchen and get my briefcase with the word rage written in huge letters on the outside. I decend down a long spiral staircase that is lit at the top and gets darker as a go down. At the end is a door. I touch the door and it opens up into a driveway. I get in the car and start the drive back home. I drive all the streets and all the turns until I get to the house. I start walking toward the house with the briefcase to get the 4 year old me. Usually the fear starts to kick in as I feel my heartrate increasing. When its fast enough I know the rage is easily accessible. When I get to the child I validate his emotion and tell him all the things that he needed to hear and feel but didn't at that time.
I have to repeat that i've been at this for a long time and have done a lot of inner child work (see Bradshaw's stuff) to encourage the emotion to come out. If the child part of you starts to believe that the adult will put in the effort to learn and support the child then the child starts feeling that it is now safe enough to let go of the emotion. As Dave pointed out its a process of letting go of control and opening yourself up to your childlike feelings that eventually brings the vulnerable scared part out.
I've got to get something in the kitchen so will get back to this. |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 16:23:09
kdw:
Since the World isn't set up so we can get other people to act the way we want them to, for our sake, we have no choice but to "not" make our happiness dependent upon doing so.
It's our child mind that tries to get everything to work out according to what "it" thinks is right, as if the universe rotates around it. Show it who's boss, by consciously choosing not to go with its sludge like flow. The conscious you is definitely stronger than one childish chain of thought. It might take a little work, but with perseverance you can succeed. "Go kdw!!
quote:
Originally posted by kdw
I find all of these posts very interesting. And by the way, I should have indicated I'm a "she."
Miehnesor: I'm interested in knowing more about the type of meditation you do. Are you doing it with a therapist? Can you share the technique with us? I have been trying to tap into repressed anger by dealing as deeply as I can with conscious anger, simply because I don't know what else to do. I have also been taking notice of the things I find myself "thinking" about unconsciously during the course of my day, and forcing myself to journal about those things whether I think they really bother me or not. I have found that by doing this, I am angry about a lot of things I honestly didn't think I was angry about. This is as close as I've come to finding repressed anger. I have gotten A LOT better as a result, but I feel I still don't have a handle on my anger issues.
My symptoms started when I became outraged last year by a family situation. I was beside myself with anger - like I've never felt before. Of course, once my physical symptoms started I soon became obsessed with that and didn't focus so much on the other, but the family situation is ongoing and that anger is there on a continuous basis. This is what I have tried to look at - really look at - but in a more detached way to keep myself from simply obsessing about the situation and driving myself crazy. The situation itself cannot be changed, so to stew about it will do no good for anyone.
I appreciate all comments. Thanks everyone.
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| kdw |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 12:01:34
I find all of these posts very interesting. And by the way, I should have indicated I'm a "she."
Miehnesor: I'm interested in knowing more about the type of meditation you do. Are you doing it with a therapist? Can you share the technique with us? I have been trying to tap into repressed anger by dealing as deeply as I can with conscious anger, simply because I don't know what else to do. I have also been taking notice of the things I find myself "thinking" about unconsciously during the course of my day, and forcing myself to journal about those things whether I think they really bother me or not. I have found that by doing this, I am angry about a lot of things I honestly didn't think I was angry about. This is as close as I've come to finding repressed anger. I have gotten A LOT better as a result, but I feel I still don't have a handle on my anger issues.
My symptoms started when I became outraged last year by a family situation. I was beside myself with anger - like I've never felt before. Of course, once my physical symptoms started I soon became obsessed with that and didn't focus so much on the other, but the family situation is ongoing and that anger is there on a continuous basis. This is what I have tried to look at - really look at - but in a more detached way to keep myself from simply obsessing about the situation and driving myself crazy. The situation itself cannot be changed, so to stew about it will do no good for anyone.
I appreciate all comments. Thanks everyone. |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 11:55:48
It makes sense to me that if you look at the responsible anger, as oppossed to hiding it, you'll get some relief.
If you get rid of the anger, you won't have to worry about it effecting you again.
quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
Well it seems that your experience with TMS is much different than mine. My experience is that I had and continue to have to feel the repressed rage to get symptom reduction and the therapy that I have been doing over the last 6 months or so proves to me that i'm on the right track. My case may be considerable different from yours hence I need to take a different approach.
I'm not stewing in my own anger at all. What i'm doing is totally relaxing in meditation and going through a guided imagry that spontaneously brings up repressed fear. When I feel the fear I then consciously act as if i'm angry and then I feel the rage. It's not connected with any scene whatsoever- just raw emotion that sweeps over me and within seconds I feel the relief. This is implicit memory emotion and it's very intense. There is a feeling of relief both physically and mentally afterwards.
I don't blame anyone for this rage. It's just there, totally unconscious and causing chronic TMS so I just have to go through this process and see it through till the fear of the rage diminishes.
Wishing the TMS away by conscious thought is completely ineffectual in my case.
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| Dave |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 09:20:24
quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
...What i'm doing is totally relaxing in meditation and going through a guided imagry that spontaneously brings up repressed fear. When I feel the fear I then consciously act as if i'm angry and then I feel the rage. It's not connected with any scene whatsoever- just raw emotion that sweeps over me and within seconds I feel the relief. This is implicit memory emotion and it's very intense. There is a feeling of relief both physically and mentally afterwards.
This is a good example of what we can strive to do. For many, unfortunately, it is very difficult to attain. Conscious thoughts get in the way.
This is very different than feeling anger towards someone at work. This is as close as we can get to feeling repressed emotion. When it happens it can be very profound, leading you to feelings that you didn't even realize were buried. For example, conscious anger can turn to fear can turn to sadness in a matter of seconds, and even if you don't know where the sadness is coming from, letting it out can be an escape valve that helps to relieve symptoms. |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 23:15:07
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
It is true that some issues are more serious than others. For example, anger towards somebody who molested you as a child is different than the anger you feel about some little incidence that happens at work. Yet, I do believe resolution is possible for anything. One key is to find out that no matter what has happened to you during your life, it doesn't have the power to keep effecting you psychologically, if you don't give it the power. Stewing in your own anger won't solve anything.
Well it seems that your experience with TMS is much different than mine. My experience is that I had and continue to have to feel the repressed rage to get symptom reduction and the therapy that I have been doing over the last 6 months or so proves to me that i'm on the right track. My case may be considerable different from yours hence I need to take a different approach.
I'm not stewing in my own anger at all. What i'm doing is totally relaxing in meditation and going through a guided imagry that spontaneously brings up repressed fear. When I feel the fear I then consciously act as if i'm angry and then I feel the rage. It's not connected with any scene whatsoever- just raw emotion that sweeps over me and within seconds I feel the relief. This is implicit memory emotion and it's very intense. There is a feeling of relief both physically and mentally afterwards.
I don't blame anyone for this rage. It's just there, totally unconscious and causing chronic TMS so I just have to go through this process and see it through till the fear of the rage diminishes.
Wishing the TMS away by conscious thought is completely ineffectual in my case. |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 10:17:35
I believe the key is not to ignore the anger, but to determine whether it is actually necessary. For example, sometimes I'll find myself getting angry about something that happens at work, come to my senses and realize that my childish mind is imagining a problem where there is none, let the thought pattern go, and feel a nice feeling of release.
It is true that some issues are more serious than others. For example, anger towards somebody who molested you as a child is different than the anger you feel about some little incidence that happens at work. Yet, I do believe resolution is possible for anything. One key is to find out that no matter what has happened to you during your life, it doesn't have the power to keep effecting you psychologically, if you don't give it the power. Stewing in your own anger won't solve anything.
In whatever way one can, one should try to find a viewpoint that enables them to feel transcendent over the situation that happened.
It makes sense what kdw wrote. He'll (she'll?) feel the symptoms more when he focuses on the problem. I believe this is because the emotional/thought energy that causes the problem is brought to life when you focus on it. Once you let it go, the pain will go away (Remember Helen, from Dr. Sarno's book?). This is how it has worked for me on a number of occasions.
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