| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bernard lewis |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 19:24:17
It is known that a fish has no memory. It does have an autonomous system but the fish has almost no thinking brain.
Suppose autonomous system starts a tms-like process in the fish. Dr Sarno says it is autonomous system which starts it all (although if a fish cannot think should not have unconscious mind either-lets suppose it happens anyway-). The fact is that it will fail totally for only one reason: fish have no memory.
Suppose for a moment you could forget the pain you got the day before. Tomorrow morning you might feel some pain again, let's say moderate pain, but you do not remember to have been in pain the day before so you will guess the pain will cease and of course you will continue with your daily tasks despite the pain. We usually don't cease our activities the first day we feel moderate pain. Suppose this process happens every day. You don't remember having pain te day before. Eventually the pain will actually cease because: you don't have the fear to recurring pain; your brain will not pay atention to the area in pain; the pain will have no control over your mind.
The strongest force that keeps tms pain going on is precisely the memory of the pain. If we think on the pain, we read about pain, we talk about pain, we visit physicians, we re-read our latest mri, we think on our future with pain, etc.etc. we are reinforcing the image of pain in our memory.
That explains why Dr.Sarno recommends to return to normal activities and forget about everything we have heard about pain. Because thinking on it and remembering it will perpetuate it.
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| FlyByNight |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 20:48:36
For those interested in this general topic, I strongly suggest a really great book called "waking the tiger" by PEter LEvine.
here is the link
http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Tiger-Transform-Overwhelming-Experiences/dp/155643233X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8139078-4887257?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182998874&sr=8-1
Bless
P.
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| Kristin |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 11:55:37
Another behavioral pattern of real fish that I know of that may or may not dispute the idea of thinking about the future. Fishfarm fish (of a particular variety, either rainbow trout or hybrid stripped bass) who are fed at a particular time of day everyday will only approach the feeding platform at the scheduled time when their feeder approaches. If a person appears on the platform at any other time than the feeding time, they will be ignored. That at least suggests a sense of time. Weird huh? I guess if feeding was random they might approach a person at any time.
I think this is just further evidence of the power of conditioning especially when it is linked to our survival. It is important to think of pain as a clue or a message instead of the enemy. Perhaps our emotional survival really depends on learning from the physically non-threatening pain signals we get. The pain of extreme heat certainly is a signal to avoid being burned.
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| FlyByNight |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 14:47:29
If animals did not have any sense of time , then pavlovian conditionning would just not work right ? as it is based on conditionning youself from past experiences ...
Animals have a sense of their past experiences as they can associate pain with a particular event and learn to avoid danger (or what they percieve as danger) for sure ...
However, I agree on the fact that they probably lack a sense of the future, and by extension of their own death, of what will become of them past the present moment.
Thats basically what differentiates us humans from animals.
Animals do not forecast, they learn from the past to adapt themselves in the present time ...
P.
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| Penny |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:42:13
quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
Some pain is NOT TMS, like the toothache that gets progressively worse, or the labor pains, because parts of your body are being pushed to the extreme.
Good point.
I think you may have read my post hastily: I certainly was NOT saying that labor pains were TMS. I was only questioning if the intensity could be exacerbated by subconscious fear of parenting or other subc fears that arise out birth.
I've heard of women smiling or laughing during a labor who profess to be "pain-free" without drugs. Yes, these women are the minority. Also, in nature, we see animals give birth without a grunt or groan. It's these kinds of ideas that led me to wonder ... just wonder ... NOT believe that all pain is TMS.
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 09:43:11
Penny,
With all due respect, it's posts like yours about birthing labor pains that give Sarno purists a bad name.
Some pain is NOT TMS, like the toothache that gets progressively worse, or the labor pains, because parts of your body are being pushed to the extreme.
So many people on this board want to label Sarno purists as fundamentalists who discount all physcial pain. I don't know how this helps them, but they seem adament to prove that they can believe in TMS only half way, still cling to their physical limitations or injuries and still be cured.
As yet, I haven't seen much evidence for this. |
| Penny |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 10:34:24
Good topic.
When I get "pain" now, I carry on with my daily routine. I deny the pain having control over what I consciously want to do (or must do).
For some reason, this topic makes me wonder about child labor-a pain that mostly lasts during birthing process. I wonder how much of the pain from contractions stems from subconscious fear about becoming a parent OR the birthing stories of pain we've always heard that set us up to believe it will be excrutiating? Believe me, I know there is a HUGELY "organic" physical element to labor (I had both my kids naturally without any drugs) but I wonder if using TMS knowledge about pain can change the way we the pain of birth?
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
| Kristin |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 09:40:36
Throwing a slight wrench into the topic. I work with a number of fish biologists and the work they do relies on fish behavior. There are a few studies that show that fish can be taught certain behaviors such as response to light and other stimuli which they seem to exhibit memory responses to. Fish in nature learn to avoid predators and fish in hatcheries can be taught to respond to various stimuli to increase the chances of survival in nature. The response is retained over time. Is that true memory? I don't know. It's just interesting. Humans also avoid things that are unpleasant or dangerous. Some of us react as if it's autonomic or knee jerk. We don't always think.
This does not dispute the good point made by Bernard. I think we humans hold onto memories unneccesarily and use those memories to project onto the future in often destructive ways to our physical and mental health. Thinking of things that I have an urge to remember I realize how useless some of those memories are. The NY Times had a good article on the benefits of forgetting a couple of weeks ago. It was actually inspiring! |
| LuvtoSew |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 05:54:43
How true your post is , I think we forget what it was like to be without the symptoms we have and how to feel "normal". I sure wish I could erase my memory of the last couple years.
I've been quilty, I've seen so many doctors the last couple years and my symptoms are worst, and I'm getting to the point I'm tired and don't even want to see anyone else. I would like nothing better than to forget about it and move on.
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| Stryder |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 22:23:08
Very well said. Bravo. I thought fish had a 3 second memory. Either way, in Sarno terms its a TMS equivelant of zero. Who wants to be a fish? Me Me Me Me Me Me !
Since we cannot be a fish, we will have to be a virtual fish.
Okay, new campaign:
beat tms
be the fish
Take care, -Stryder |
| Chip |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 22:05:29
Really good point. Sometimes I wonder if the reason I still have this lingering pain is because i'm expecting to have a little pain! It's like I'm so used to it, I can't remember what it's like for it not to be around! |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 10:35:21
Excellent post. The human sense of time can be a handicap. Think about it: if we had no sense of past or future, lots of anxiety would disappear. An important part of recovery, I believe, is to learn to be present, to put all of your thoughts in the moment to the greatest extent possible. |
