| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| leonard |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 12:36:25
I've been dealing with anxiety changing to back pain changing to butt pain and sciatica to leg pain and toe weakness for about a month and a half now. I treated it as TMS until I got the toe weakness and then I went to the doctor . He gave me anti inflammatories and muscle relaxants about two weeks ago and I have improved. He told me to not exercize , and in this time period I am better. I am not attributing my improvement to the pills , but when I felt the weakness it did concern me.
I've read Sarno's books and believe wholeheartedly that I am a TMS person. It seems that this disorder knows what frightens you the most and will go to any length to keep your attention on your body. Right now I'm mad at myself and my lack of courage to fight this , and embarassed to admit that the fear has captured me again.
I've listened to Dr. Schecter's psychology disk and it mentions acceptance and surrender as the cornerstone of recovery. Having to search for all the hidden, unconscious,
repressed emotions wasn't needed in most circumstances . My question is ; Can anyone of you on this forum describe acceptance and surrender in more penetrating way ? I understand that this may be a difficult question to answer , but would appreciate any input.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| yowire |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 19:30:02
From Scottydog:
quote:
You're not born feeling worthless
This may be true, but I think it could start shortly thereafter. One of the first things we experience is that we're kind of stinky and dirty and we need to be cleaned up alot, usually by someone who probably has a sour face due to our filth and odor. This may be accompanied by a grunt or two especially if the father is involved. Then we learn that we are pretty much helpless and totally dependent on others. At some point we discover that our self expressions are almost always met with disapproval, usually with words like "stop that" "NO" or "SSHHHH". And, just like the Rolling Stones, we learn that we can't always get what we want. (no matter how much we scream and cry) But if we try some time, do we find that we get what we need? Probably not, from our very young perspective.
As a baby, we probably don't think much about these things consciously. But, is it possible that unconsciously, these kinds of experiences and others might promote repressed feelings of inadequacy and low self worth very early?
I think it is possible.
While I was composing this post, Peter posted a very interesting article under the heading "article on child rearing" which also illustrates some of these thoughts.
Yowire
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| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 17:58:33
Stryder,
After reading your post I phoned the Buddhist monk who taught the workshop on forgiveness. Again, I asked him about resurfacing anger that continues toward a person, even after doing the "forgiveness process." He said that eventually your mind will "get" that you're over it and will truly let it go. He also said that it takes patience with yourself and that it may take many, many times of reminding yourself that you have pulled the arrow out of the relationship before your mind is convinced, and that you will "just know" when it has happened.
I know this seems so not-TMS, and I'm still reflecting on it myself.
Then again, who am I argue with 2500 years of success?!
Curiosity
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| Stryder |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 14:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity18
When I asked the instructor how to know if you're only repressing the feelings, he looked at me is if I were from Mars, and answered "because the process is complete! It works!
Interesting. With he TMS-prone personality, I can see how the process has merit but is really never complete. When you reach the last step and recall that the arrow has already been pulled out, that's when the circular obsession usually kicks in. As Baseball65 would say, that's the point where you have to "Let go". So I guess if we can let go then the forgiveness would be complete.
I can also see where you could forgive and let go, but then un-let-go later when the emotions resurface.
The "from Mars" look is typical in discussions with non-TMSers.
-Stryder |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 04:50:48
On acceptance and surrender, here's a quote which seems appropriate from a book called "the places that scare you" by Pema Chödrön:
"When I was about six years old I received the essential bodhichitta teaching from an old woman sitting in the sun. I was walking by her house one day feeling lonely, unloved, and mad, kicking anything I could find. Laughing, she said to me, 'Little girl, don't you go letting life harden your heart.'
"Right there, I received this pith instruction: we can let the circumstances of our life harden us so that we become increasingly resentful and afraid, or we can let them soften us and make us kinder and more open to what scares us. We always have this choice."
Hilary N |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 17:06:41
Accepting that you feel worthless: I think that could be an important step, but don’t make the mistake of thinking that you are worthless. Feeling and being are two different things.
I agree with Anne / Scottydog – you’re not born feeling worthless. If you feel worthless deep down and have accepted that then I think the next stage is to examine the reasons why you feel worthless. Is it the people around you now or, more likely, if it’s deep down, is it the people who were around you when you were a child? Remember, too, that it could be your partner who invokes those feelings - probably unknowingly on their part, but it’s unfortunately true that “familiarity breeds contempt”. I’m very careful about the people I’m with. If they make me feel bad about myself then I try and avoid contact with them.
Stryder, you raise a very good point about forgiveness. It was my thought when first reading this thread that acceptance ties in with forgiveness. Seth gave a nice example a while ago about how he forgave his father (08/28/2005):
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1280&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=forgive%2Cfather
I think understanding is important to be able to forgive. It’s very important not to “fake” forgiveness, because then you’ll just be repressing the feelings.
quote:
(Scottydog)But I do believe understanding helps - if you look at why someone treated you badly it is usually tied up with all the baggage they're carrying themselves.
Very true. I think the best way to understand someone is to try and put yourself in their shoes and see the world from their viewpoint. Even if someone’s done something very bad, maybe you could try feeling compassion for them that something in their life made them behave that way.
quote:
(Scottydog)But can't I just accept that I don't forgive someone - without repressing or surrendering? Or am I not being honest.
Probably better that than repressing it.
I like Curiosity’s Buddhist’s monk method:
quote:
2. Write out a complete, uncensored summary of everything you're angry about in relation to that person 3. Write out a life story/history of that person, everything you know about them. 4. Notice any shift in your feelings about that person (hopefully you can feel at least a thread of compassion.
The only thing is with 6:
quote:
6. If you ever again find yourself being angry again over their past deeds, you say to yourself: "I have already pulled the arrow out of this relationship."
I think that the fact that you are finding yourself angry again means the process wasn’t completed satisfactorily, and you should maybe repeat 2/3/4 – dig deeper, put yourself in that person’s shoes, perhaps examine unrelated reasons for feeling the way you do. Maybe the real reason you’re angry with that person has nothing to do with them.
Forgiveness isn’t an easy process, but I think it’s worth doing it thoroughly to get rid of the repressed feelings.
Hilary N |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 15:22:38
Stryder
I recently went to a workshop given by a Buddhist monk on forgiveness the procedure involved the following: 1. Think of someone you're pissed off with 2. Write out a complete, uncensored summary of everything you're angry about in relation to that person 3. Write out a life story/history of that person, everything you know about them. 4. Notice any shift in your feelings about that person (hopefully you can feel at least a thread of compassion. 5. Affirm that the forgiveness process is complete and that you are now released from the toxic bond you had with this person. 6. If you ever again find yourself being angry again over their past deeds, you say to yourself: "I have already pulled the arrow out of this relationship."
When I asked the instructor how to know if you're only repressing the feelings, he looked at me is if I were from Mars, and answered "because the process is complete! It works!"
So, although I am attempting to use this technique, I don't really know if I'm repressing or not. I suppose that the image of "pulling the arrow out of the relationship", whenever the anger comes up again interrupts the obsessive thoughts. But then I get angry again! Then I remind myself that I pulled the arrow out again! But am I only repressing?!
I think that the problem with so many TMS folks like myself, is that we overanalyze things way too much- which probably prevents us from being able to "accept and surrender"
take care,
curiosity offering CD3 |
| leonard |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 14:41:03
I woke up in surrender mode. Did my elliptical exercize routine ; 30 minutes of ardent "surrender" chanting. As I was picking up the pace "submission" and " Resurrection " somehow came in as chant words ( I guess unconsciously drawn from my Sunday school days ) , but I corrected myself and immediately got back to surrender. I know this sounds stupid, but I'm trying.
I think that acceptance and surrender has little or nothing to do with conscious attitudes like optimism or pessimism , nor does it with forgiveness, unless forgiveness or resentment is the object emotion being surrendered to. It may be that acceptance and surrender is the ultimate honesty to oneself, a movement to , deep and visceral. Anyway , it is a journey for me and , on a scale of 1 to 10 ( just kiddding) , I'm doing better.
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| Stryder |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 10:11:48
Hi Anne,
Thanks for your reply. Honestly I think I'm in the same boat you are. If I were able to forgive then I likely would not have TMS, and we wouldn't be here discussing it now.
So maybe one way out of TMS is that to truly forgive you also have to forget, in that order. The obsession part is preventing the forget part.
-Stryder |
| Scottydog |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 09:59:31
Stryder,
To be honest I've not been able to forgive (like alot of the improve yourself self-help books advise) but presumed I held too much of a grudge about certain things and assumed that others did succeed at this.
But I do believe understanding helps - if you look at why someone treated you badly it is usually tied up with all the baggage they're carrying themselves.
But can't I just accept that I don't forgive someone - without repressing or surrendering? Or am I not being honest.
Anne
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| Stryder |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 09:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by Scottydog
I don't know if I can follow this thinking.
Doesn't it mean acceptance and surrender of a situation but acceptance of and understanding / forgiving the causes of your feelings of worthlessness.
You're not born feeling worthless.
Anne
I'm in a quandry.
Do people, especially perfectionists, really know how to forgive? I'm thinking no. We fake it. We think we forgive but we really just repress. I'd be interested to hear opinions on this.
Take care, -Stryder |
| lastlostmonkey |
Posted - 02/03/2006 : 04:21:44
Hi,
I want to say that I also found Alan's post amazingly illuminating (although really it's more like being punched in the stomach somehow!). I also thought about it all day and it prompted me to think very honestly about my feelings about a big life thing that is coming up and to discuss them with my husband honestly even though I felt it risked being too vulnerable. I was looking at 'improve your self esteem' type books yesterday and realised in the light of Alan's post that this is utterly pointless and counter productive because it deals only with the conscious kind of self esteem. What I need to do is precisely what Alan says, recognise and accept the insecurity of the unconscious.
Thanks,
LastLostMonkey |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 23:41:19
ATG,
I am glad that you had success with "Acceptance and Surrender". While I worked on this very issue with the Dubin I only became more and more depressed and my pain became much worse. After a year and a half of phone therapy with him I finally realized that for me this approach was counter-therapeutic. I realize that not everyone responds to the same approach, (which is why I find this forum to be so helpful). To me, affirming that I would always be in pain, and never be good enough only confirmed my most negative, dark beliefs about myself to begin with! Also, because of the long duration of my symptoms I know now that I should have been working with a therapist in-person (I would suggest that for TMS people who are considering psychotherapy, particularly if symptoms are severe and/or of long duration that you proceed with caution before deciding to pursue phone therapy). Again this was my own experience, but I know recognize that this approach can be useful to some folks.
Curiosity
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| atg |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 19:17:36
Beth,
You touched on one of the inherent contradictions in psychotherapy. Many people want to change, they don't like the way the are. Yet, psychotherapy aims to bring about self-acceptance. "How can I accept who I am if I want to change? How can I change if I'm okay with myself the way I am? Will changing even matter to me once I accept myself the way I am?" Self acceptance is an important ingredient in change, strange as that sounds.
In regard to the temporary/forever argument, if you're okay with something but only temporarily, I'd argue that you were really weren't okay with it. Temporary acceptance sounds more like tolerance to me. Here's something straight from the Dubin's mouth: "Accept that your pain will never go away." Me: "But I want it to go away." Dubin: "Just because you realize and accept it right now, at this present moment, that doesn't mean that in the future you will have pain."
Again this is only one way to go about it, it's not like everyone who's ever recovered from TMS have used this method.
Leonard and Yowire, I'm glad that this resonated with you. The person I was talking about in my example was (if it wasn't obvious) myself. It is exhausting to act all day long in a way so that others will look at us as worthwhile. Yet it is so painful to let them see the parts of us that we are ashamed of. I believe that bringing down the barriers in these situations is a good first step. Telling a bunch of people several months ago that I had TMS was incredibly difficult. "What if think less of me? What if they realize I have low self-esteem? What if they think that I can't cope with emotions?" All of these thoughts made it incredibly difficult, yet I forced myself to do it anyway.
Reducing the gap between our private selves and our public selves.
That is surrender and acceptance.
p.s. I had to look up the word "ingredient" on dictionary.com. Dare I misspell it and people think I'm unintelligent. :) |
| Scottydog |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 18:35:31
I don't know if I can follow this thinking.
Doesn't it mean acceptance and surrender of a situation but acceptance of and understanding / forgiving the causes of your feelings of worthlessness.
You're not born feeling worthless.
Anne |
| yowire |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 18:02:27
quote:
Acceptance and surrender in this case would mean to accept and surrender to the underlying feeling of worthlessness. "I feel worthless. That is who I am. A person who will never be anything. That is how I feel. This will never change." Surrendering to that painful conclusion will optimally preclude any need for the pain.
I felt compelled all day long to think about Alan's post. I experience these feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness everyday. During my TMS work, I have tried to feel these feelings deeply in the hope that it would improve my symptoms, and I think that it has, but the thought of surrendering to them has always been abhorrent to me. However, the more I think about it, the more I can see the sense in it. Pondering this raises so many questions in my mind. I have not formulated my own thoughts on this clearly yet.
I think this is an important thread. I hope there will be more discussion on this topic.
Yowire |
| leonard |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 12:59:30
Alan ; I see the truth in what you wrote , and the example fit me well.
You are saying that hiding the somewhat conscious and genuine feeling of not being good enough , etc., by portraying yourself as smarter , better, etc., than others, from others, is being guided or fueled by a deeper feeling of worthlessness. Surrendering to this deeper feeling negates the necessity of the pain and minimizes the conflict.
Part of me is seeing the freedom of that self - admission , and is drawn to it. Another is asking, "What and where will you be without your act" , for this surrender would seem to cause , at the least , some change in relationships with others. I don't yet feel the pain of this surrender , possibly I'm still quite shallow with it, but do believe you have shown wonderful insight.
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| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 08:33:20
Alan,
I agree with everything you said, but don't see why surrender needs to be forever.
I feel accept means "I'm unhappy about this in my life RIGHT NOW."
I feel surrender means "I surrender to the fact that FOR NOW, I'm unhappy with this in my life."
One difference between optimists and pessimists is pessimists see shortcomings as permanent, Optimists as temporary.
Beth |
| atg |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 21:41:44
According to Don Dubin, acceptance and surrender is a similar concept to self-acceptance. The pain arises because you are denying an essential part of yourself from expression. For example, let's assume that deep down, a person feels a sense of worthlessness. He thinks that he is inferior to others, and can never be "good enough." To compensate for that, he may get a great job, get great grades, turn in amazing reports, or generally attempt to portray himself to others as competent, intelligent, etc.
Lost in all of that, though, is the genuine feeling of being incompetent, not intelligent enough, not good enough, or whatever he is trying to hide. Acceptance and surrender in this case would mean to accept and surrender to the underlying feeling of worthlessness. "I feel worthless. That is who I am. A person who will never be anything. That is how I feel. This will never change." Surrendering to that painful conclusion will optimally preclude any need for the pain.
Alan |
| altherunner |
Posted - 01/30/2006 : 19:32:33
Yes - I also really enjoyed Monte's book and cd, Get Rid of the Pain in Your Butt Now. His site is also very good - www.runningpain.com |
| FlyByNight |
Posted - 01/29/2006 : 18:21:46
try Monte Hueftle book ... Its amazing ! |
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