| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 11:20:58
Many people often post here wondering when they will be "completely healed" or "pain free." In my opinion this mode of thinking is counterproductive.
First of all, if you set a goal, such as "I will be pain-free by Christmas," and the goal is not met (which is likely) it will just add to the frustration (fuel to the fires that cause TMS in the first place), and undermine the belief in the diagnosis.
Second of all, setting such goals implies that you have control over TMS, which you don't. In fact, it is necessary to accept that you don't have control. Desire to control everything in life is a common personality trait in people who are prone to TMS.
Treatment is a long-term process. You must take a long-term view. You must simply do the work, accept the ups and downs (which may include worsening of symptoms before it gets better) and believe that over time, the symptoms will steadily decrease until they are no longer a prominent factor in your life.
Does that mean you will one day be "pain free?" Maybe, maybe not. In my opinion that is not the goal. The goal is to be able to live your life without fear of the symptoms, without paying attention to the pain every waking moment, without doubt that maybe you do have a physical problem, etc.
I believe TMS-prone people will continue to have psychogenic symptoms throughout their lives. Over time those episodes will be fewer and far between, and of shorter duration. If your goal is to never experience TMS symptoms again, it is probably not attainable.
Treatment is a life-long process. It is a fundamental change in the way you think about the symptoms and react to them. There is no "cure." The goal is to take the power away from the symptoms. You can't control the symptoms, but you can strive to not allow the symptoms to control you.
Accept the diagnosis, and accept that it takes time for the symptoms to subside, and it is typically a gradual process. Do the work, become more aware of your emotional state. Take a long-term view. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| johnnyg |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 08:04:30
Hello:
There is so much controversy over recovery time periods that I went back to MBP to analyze the text a little. Piecing together several provisions seems to shed light on this and clarify that full recovery is pretty clearly not typically a matter of a few weeks. On page 148, last sentence of first paragraph: " In most cases the cessation of pain takes only a few weeks, although banishing the fear may take a LOT longer." (emphasis added). Earlier in the book he explains that the fear is genrally harder to banish than the pain and where the fear is NOT banished, the pain WILL RETURN, no if ands or buts.
So it is clear from the text that the most likely scenario is that people will continue to experience residual fear after they have reduced or banished pain, so the pain will return. Therefore, most cases do not result in full cure in a matter of weeks. I think he is largely misunderstood as having said that a cure takes only weeks. After I read the book the first time, I had an immediate relief of pain, but full cure has taken me many months and the typical scenario involves recurring fear and continuing pain episodes until your mind is reconditioned. I think people are making full cure synonomous with the initial banishing of some or most of the pain, but kicker is that nearly everone will have set backs and lingering fear.
I lot of people recently have been talking about how to deal with emotions in the context of TMS recovery. This is clearly (in my mind anyway) a gray area in Sarno's books, so I am tossing some thoughts around and will soon post ideas on this and give an update on my recovery. Cheers!
John |
| JohnD |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 05:09:29
bumping this up for newbies |
| esher |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 11:05:27
I began reading Sarno's books (all 3 of them) at the beginning of November. By no means am I "cured", whatever that means, but I am noticeably better. For example, I can sit in chairs for longer periods of time, and I have discarded back support cushions and many bizarre learned behaviors (e.g. "in hotel beds, I must sleep on my stomach because I know it will hurt way too much to sleep on my side"). I still get discomfort, and I get regular twinges, but they bother me less. One disconcerting but I think necessary side effect is that as I started thinking more about things that might bother me, I got other side effects such as acute anxiety and cold sweat. But I'm even starting to be ok with experiencing those.
It is a long road, a lifestyle change, and it almost feels like a brain transplant sometimes. But one of the things I like about the TMS program is that it's so empowering. Too much of modern medicine involves being a passive patient: lie on your back, tell me where it hurts, come back in 2 weeks, take these drugs. TMS treatment encourages you to take charge of your own recovery. And you don't even need to change your personality in the process, you just need to learn more about it.
By the way, Peter, if you've been going 9 months without any change, I would suggest getting a little extra 1 on 1 help from someone knowledgeable. I saw Dr. Schechter in LA a couple of weeks ago, and his careful examination followed by the confirmation of the TMS diagnosis was a strong reinforcement for me. Sarno does say that 10-15% of his patients required psychotherapy from a TMS-knowledgeable therapist. It's always possible that you're in that group; there's nothing wrong with that. I may go that route myself depending on my follow-up visit to Dr. Schechter since I have had some trouble tracking down all of my unconscious rage (although I've already found more than I would have thought possible). He works closely with some good therapists in the area, and I'm sure that other TMS doctors in other areas of the country (assuming you live near one) would be able to refer you to a good therapist. If you don't live near one, it might not be a bad idea to call Sarno's office and ask if they know any TMS practitioners in your area.
Wishing you good health and a pain-free New Year...
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| Hestia |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 21:11:52
I am a long time lurker. I recovered from my original symptoms in about 2-4 weeks. It was pretty quick for me and this was just from reading the book. My study of TMS is on going as I have little recurring pains. Thankfully none are as debilitating as the original. My goal is to be like Marc - I want to be able to make the pain go away just by recognizing it for what it is. But for now I live with banishing it in weeks, lessening the pain little by little. |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 10:18:58
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Baseball. A few people that you know recovered quickly does not make 90% of those people with TMS who are using Sarno's work. The 4-6 week recovery time is much lower than what Sarno says in his books.
No offense, Peter, but you really need to back up such a statement with facts.
Just because the majority of people on this forum might have experienced long recovery times doesn't mean it is an accurate sample. Most of those who have recovered from TMS don't have the need or desire to visit this forum.
I don't doubt that there are a great many people who are completely pain free within 6 weeks simply as a result of reading Dr. Sarno's books. I don't doubt that it is the majority, though I believe it is probably closer to 51% than to 90%. Dr. Sarno has documented thousands of cases over his 30+ year career, and I do not believe he is lying about his success rate.
Of course there are some people who have a more difficult path to recovery, for whatever reason. But this forum is not even close to representing an accurate sample of those who have TMS, and especially not those who have recovered.
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| n/a |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 09:59:31
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Baseball. A few people that you know recovered quickly does not make 90% of those people with TMS who are using Sarno's work. The 4-6 week recovery time is much lower than what Sarno says in his books. That is not to say I am diasgreeing with Sarno. Several months ago I was on my back and could not move but thanks to him a am functional. But that did not come in just a few weeks. That was damn hard work and a ton of discouragement to boot. One would think that those on this board who have recovered would at least broadcast it before they sign off the board. I think many people leave the board for a variety of reasons.... |
| moose1 |
Posted - 12/20/2005 : 07:28:22
quote:
It is a fundamental change in the way you think about the symptoms and react to them.
I agree with this and would also add that it's a fundamental change in the way you think about *yourself* and how you react to those thoughts.
In my case, I had to (and continute to) muddle through all the lies and illusions I had about myself and who I am. I was programmed to view myself as I wanted others to see me, and after some serious thought discovered that most of my ideas about this were totally wrong.
This insight allowed me to get a glimpse of truth about what is real and what was the result of inaccurate, distorted thinking. I found that this distorted thinking (for example, "I am viewed as the most talented person in my department, so I must act in such a way that I can perpetuate this idea") was so far off the mark, and so much the result of an ego totally out of whack, that it allowed me to start to see things a little more truthfully. Once I started to talk some truth to myself, it diffused some of the self-loathing and conflict that generated a lot of that anger that resulted in TMS symptoms.
I focused on the symptoms for years and it just made everything worse. I tried ingoring the pain, and while this works for many people, I just couldn't do it. But once I focused on myself and my grossly distored thinking, everthing started to calm down. It's not easy. It's hard work. I'll have to do it for the rest of my life. But I'm in a lot better shape than I was a year ago, and once I saw the connection between my thinking and being able to greatly diminish the pain, I stopped worrying about being "cured." There's nothing to be cured of. It's a new way of thinking that you have to adopt permanently. The great thing is that your new mode of thinking is applicable to just about everything in life.
Hope this makes some sense.
Moose |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 21:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
You are one person out of tens of thousdands baseball, so figure out the percentage there. Giving people false hopes of a speedy recovery is frankly unethical.
No...that is wrong. I have personally witnessed the same sort of high to mid 90% type of recovery rate Sarno speaks of.
Fear and anxiety many times told me I was the One in ten thousand you speak of,but that was not the case.I don't think Dr. Sarno could be soooo right about so much and than absurdly wrong on his stats.
In fact,in the Stossel series his files were opened for investigation and his numbers were overwhelmingly accurate.
..and I have NEVER met Dr. Sarno,or corresponded with him or attended a lecture. I read one book, HBP and that was it. Mindbody prescription came out wayyyyy after I was cured.The CD's and tapes and Schecter and Sopher and all these other angles were news to me on this forum and I have never,ever investigated them. Monte Hueftle is just another guy who recovered,and only a name.
I have said it before and I'll say it again....I feel the value of the forum is often dubious...I had NO one to consult when I read the book...even the man who told me about it was out of town when I finally decided to crack the cover,and I so desperately wanted to "qualify' and NOT be that one in a thousand that Sarno caveats via 'almost always' and 'rarely. and all the other fears and fantasies that ran amuck as I faced the terrifying things inside of my life and my Brain.
It is important to have the forum so you can know there are other people with the same sort of dilemma's and what not,but the real deal,the actual healing is not unlike a spritual experience...you're going to find it alone,you and the word,a pad of paper.....an idea,and the courage/desperation to put into practice some very simple instructions that seem monumental and undoable from the downside of the hill.
No...I am rank/file average. I merely told a man I barely knew about Sarno, a year ago October?? I saw him at Xmas and he was recovered...completely.Oh yeah...he was in Furious fight with his wife and contemplating divorce,but his pain was gone.He,like me is the rule,not some exception.
-piggy
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up. |
| Jena |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 18:50:34
Baseball is really my incouragement because he may of gotten better fastter but HE GOT HEALED so doesnt that say enough? i know it does for me even if it takes a lil longer |
| art |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 16:20:19
quote:
You are one person out of tens of thousdands baseball, so figure out the percentage there. Giving people false hopes of a speedy recovery is frankly unethical.
Well those are strong words....I also recovered fairly quickly from the stuff that originally got me here, but that doesn't mean new things aren't cropping up all the time...
I don't see how you can call giving people hope unethical, once you acknowledge that it's not "false"...by definition, hope is a fuzzy thing, a promise only insofar as it speaks to possibiities..
You're probably angry and frustrated and that's understandable... |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 15:30:17
You are one person out of tens of thousdands baseball, so figure out the percentage there. Giving people false hopes of a speedy recovery is frankly unethical. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 15:28:11
We must also keep in mind that these are people that Sarno personally evaluated, and supported with his diagnosis and seminars etc... |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 15:21:43
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
Well the 3-5 week recovery that Sarno talks about is a myth for sure
With all due respect,I recovered from 99% of my symptoms in exactly this time frame,and I was post-surgical failure in a chronic pain facility.
The only reason I say 99% is that I still had the backpain goes-knee-goes-shoulder chase,but never back pain....it always tries something new.
most of the people (and I remember a bunch) who come on this forum and get better disappear.....
-Marc
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up. |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 11:30:23
Peter, you should give yourself a lot of credit for having such insight into your own personality.
For others to have this kind of realization might take years of psychotherapy.
Being hard on yourself and not recognizing one's own accomplishments is, I believe, a common trait in TMS-prone people. The root is, of course, low self-esteem, possibly brought on by distant parents. |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 08:37:42
quote:
Peter- I thought you were seeing improvement by chalenging the TMS with heavy workout? It seemed like it from your previous post.
I said I was challenging it, it did not say I was improving. Of course, being a TMS type I would never give myself credit anyways. Always, as my wife has noted many times, I can consistently find an oppotunity to put myself down and diminish my efforts even when others think I am excelling. This can generate a lot of anger and anxiety in me I am sure. What can be more frustrating to an individual when he or she makes effort and yet sees no visible or satifactory outcome? You see, being a TMS type, I would not even give myself credit even if I were 100% pain free. That's the kind of person I am and I will have to live with this reality of my personality. Even if I do give myself credit, on the inside I will feel like a big fake and hypocrit.
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| JohnD |
Posted - 12/19/2005 : 06:12:40
If I had been 9 months into using Sarno's techniques and had not seen much progress, I would be re-examing everything I was doing. From my beliefs that are holding me back, to my emotions, to applying the techniques in the painful moments, to tracking my pain with a daily log to see the ways in which it doesn't make sense etc... etc... etc....
I think the problem with Sarno's techniques is that they are very general and don't address our specific beliefs that are holding us back. So using his techniques we repeat to ourselves all day "there is no physical basis for my pain, it is caused by repressed emotions" but we don't believe it wholeheartedly. Maybe a part of us does, but there is also a part of us that doesn't. What I think is necessary is to really look at specific beliefs that are holding us back i.e. "well i do have a herniated disc at L3, it possible maybe be causing the pain". Then at that point be aware of the pain all the time, and make a list of ways in which that explanation doesn't add up:
1. well my pain switches spots in my leg or back, and if the herniation is truly at L3 it would pretty much affect the same area all the time
2. my pain is better in the morning and worse at night or vice versa and if it was truly physical then it would pretty much the same amount all of the time like a sprained ankle does
etc...
etc...
Then when we have a list that is true to our own experiences, we can use it to really start refuting the pain with some ammo, rather than a sling shot |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 21:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
Well the 3-5 week recovery that Sarno talks about is a myth for sure and frankly I thinks he exxagerates a bit on this point, even though I agree with the diagnosis. I have been at this for 9 months with not the slighest recovery.
Peter- I thought you were seeing improvement by chalenging the TMS with heavy workout? It seemed like it from your previous post. |
| art |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 17:12:19
quote:
baseball,
but can you control the symptoms when they occur? from reading one of your older posts thats the conclusion i made from it you said something like you had symptoms this last month but quickly got them to erase? ... i may be wrong or maybe that was someone
I'm not baseball, but I'll take a crack at it. After a half century of trying to beat my psyche into submission, I have given up. It just can't be done, at least by me. I think control is just not the right word when it comes to matter of the mind and body.
Having said that, I think as you go along with the program so to speak, you gradually build the skills and confidence to very effectively counter most TMS symptoms. In the past ten years for example, I've been successful in managing the backpain I've had, to the point where very nasty back spasms have simply disappeared in a relatively very short time... |
| Laura |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 13:34:02
Great post, Dave. As always, thanks for keeping this forum up and running for us and happy holidays.
Laura
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| n/a |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 13:26:32
Well the 3-5 week recovery that Sarno talks about is a myth for sure and frankly I thinks he exxagerates a bit on this point, even though I agree with the diagnosis. I have been at this for 9 months with not the slighest recovery. |
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