| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| marytabby |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 17:34:41
I am confused about whiplash. As we all know, when someone has a car accident and it's enough to make them jerk their head or hit their head on something, they end up with "whiplash". Now, I have read all the TMS books, and I understand that whiplash is an epidemic in the US, whereas in other countries it's unheard of, so Sarno supposes it's a secondary gain conditioned response. I know that the books say in the US people sometimes automatically think they have whiplash but they don't, it's an emotional reaction to the accident (is that what he says? I can't be sure). But if it's not whiplash, meaning, if it's not a temporary physical condition, what exactly causes it in a physiological sense? What is the process that makes the neck hurt the next day after being in an accident? I have not had it for years but I had an accident long ago where I walked away from the crash and felt fine but then the next day I had "whiplash" and bruises on my head where I must've hit my head on the steering wheel. My neck was in so much pain. So what exactly do you think happens when we get into an accident? Is it all just an emotional response and our necks "go out"? Bear in mind, as I said I read all the TMS books and I know what Sarno says, but I am trying to figure out then just what causes this "epidemic" "injury" that so many people complain of after being hit.
Thanks. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| art |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 18:03:43
yowire wrote quote:
We don't necessarily have to hear of any particular disorder. The unconscious mind makes an assessment of the current medical culture and decides what symptoms it believes will be considered legitimate by doctors. It also makes an assessment of what you will believe based on your personality and your current frame of mind. In other words, it has a pretty good idea what will be taken seriously by either the individual or by doctors in today's culture. It will take whatever it can get. Sometimes "whatever it can get" happens often enough that it is given a name by medical authorities.
Consider the case of Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Basically, what you have here is a continuum of symptoms ranging from mild fatigue with a few symptoms all the way up to full blown bedridden exhaustion with dozens of symptoms and total bodily excrutiating pain. There really is no consistent pattern the unconscious has to follow in order to get the desired result.
That's nicely put and by far the best explanation I've heard.
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| yowire |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 08:23:15
Art and Maryalma8 asked:
quote:
So...how did my body know what to do?
Another example would be fibromyalgia in a person who'd never heard of the illness, or at least who had no knowledge of the specific symptoms involved..
quote:
This is exactly my question Art. Anyone care to elaborate?
It's true, there are things we've never heard of so there's no unconcious process going on that makes our bodies respond to something we heard somewhere along our lives. Anyone care to elaborate?
We don't necessarily have to hear of any particular disorder. The unconscious mind makes an assessment of the current medical culture and decides what symptoms it believes will be considered legitimate by doctors. It also makes an assessment of what you will believe based on your personality and your current frame of mind. In other words, it has a pretty good idea what will be taken seriously by either the individual or by doctors in today's culture. It will take whatever it can get. Sometimes "whatever it can get" happens often enough that it is given a name by medical authorities.
Consider the case of Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Basically, what you have here is a continuum of symptoms ranging from mild fatigue with a few symptoms all the way up to full blown bedridden exhaustion with dozens of symptoms and total bodily excrutiating pain. There really is no consistent pattern the unconscious has to follow in order to get the desired result.
Yowire
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 07:21:31
I stole this from somewhere,but I think it might help explain.
First.The room you are in right now....take a good look around at every single thing that is green....go ahead,take your time..soak it all into your memory and than close your eyes.
Now with your eyes closed scroll down and then read the last line
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Now without turning around(or opening your eyes if someone was there to make sure you didn't bang into something) tell me every single thing in the room that is ORANGE!
Oh...you'll get a couple from rote memory,but in general when given a certain objective,most of us delete every other piece of information.That feeling of "Oy!" that you get as you slowly remember everything that you should have remembered is common.
This is how our minds work..they have a capacity that is beyond our comprehension...unfortunately,to be effective we narrow our scope down to what we think we need to be looking for.
The day before my back went TMS,I vaguely recall a couple of older painters commenting that little 'roosters' such as myself were dangerously cocky when it came to lifting things and than they all proceeded to share their personal 'back' folklore....I say vaguely,because I thought I wasn't listening....later,though I couldn't remember the details,it was obvious that something I picked up in their discussion was what made my body focus on my back.
Better yet...I got sciatica first...I had no idea that had anything to do with the back...I thought it was a leg/hip problem.It chose something that I might have picked up in an ortho's office years before and deleted!!
remember the Nocebo from the MBP??? It's all around us whether we delete it or not.
-piggy
Baseball65 |
| marytabby |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 06:55:47
quote:
Originally posted by art
[quote]My question is, how do our bodies know how to mimic an entire syndrome, with all its defining symptoms?To the best of my conscious recollection, I'd never heard of any of this...
So...how did my body know what to do? Maybe someone will want to tell me..oh, but you must have heard of this stuff somewhere along the line and forgot it, or repressed it, but that sounds like not too satisfying an answer...
This is exactly my question Art. Anyone care to elaborate? It's true, there are things we've never heard of so there's no unconcious process going on that makes our bodies respond to something we heard somewhere along our lives. Anyone care to elaborate? |
| drziggles |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 17:06:44
To be honest, some of the symptoms you describe aren't really typical of true allergic reactions. These are just the symptoms that people with food "intolerances" have, which, not surprisingly, are the same ones that people with TMS can have (headaches, fatigue, rashes, GI problems, etc., etc.)
Why a given individual gets a specific manifestation of TMS (e.g., back pain, chronic fatigue, headaches, "food allergies," etc.) is a mystery to me. There are probably physical or genetic factors that are related in some way, as well as environmental and emotional ones.
Remember, the symptoms of TMS are physical, even if the underlying reason for the disorder is not. That is why I am not surprised that certain blood tests (of immune response, for example) can be abnormal in people with chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia; this is not inconsistent with changes that can be induced by the brain. Similarly, people under various types of stress in experimental studies can also have similar abnormalities...
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| art |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 16:46:54
quote:
If you didn't know what "whiplash" was, your neck would not hurt after the accident
See, this has always bothered me and to a certain extent has sometimes made it more difficult to accept the TMS diagnosis..
My question is, how do our bodies know how to mimic an entire syndrome, with all its defining symptoms? So for example, I have food allergies which I developed about ten years ago. Sure, I'd heard that food allergies existed, but I had no clue as to how these allergies made themselves manifest, with the exception of course of classic anaphylactic stuff...
Somehow though, my body "knew" to react with painful sinus headaches, red eyes, low grade depression etc. etc...I didn't even know what the problem was for a year or more, until I finally put it together, looking up my symptoms (which I discovered were "classic") and making the connection to certain foods...To the best of my conscious recollection, I'd never heard of any of this...
So...how did my body know what to do?
Another example would be fibromyalgia in a person who'd never heard of the illness, or at least who had no knowledge of the specific symptoms involved..
Maybe someone will want to tell me..oh, but you must have heard of this stuff somewhere along the line and forgot it, or repressed it, but that sounds like not too satisfying an answer... |
| marytabby |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 08:31:45
Ok, thanks Dave and Baseball and everyone else.
I get it now. |
| Dave |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 08:06:15
If you didn't know what "whiplash" was, your neck would not hurt after the accident.
Remember TMS is a clever process. It seizes the best opportunities it can to make you think there is a real physical problem. |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 07:58:59
Everybody is conditionable.Our egos don't like it,but it's a plain and simple fact.We hear something,it escapes our conscious mind and we are powerless over it's 'deposit' into our total psyche.We have been told in this country that "hit's from behind cause whiplash" and we get it...plain and simple.Even those who are otherwise not TMS prone.
I drove by a fender bender a couple of days ago...no damage to the front car...the woman got out,and was grabbing her neck as she made a phonecall....why her neck? why not her shoulder or her back?
Oftentimes one is told when one feels nothing "Oh....you'll feel it tomorrow or the next day"....and sure enough,we do.After the set wall collapsed on me at work,everybody who had witnessed it would NOT SHUT UP with their "Ohhh..that's must have hurt"..I had already read Sarno and was amazed at how spot on he is about society prolonging the myth....when I said I was fine,they switched to.."Well...than you're really going to feel it tomorrow!"
I turned 40 on tuesday....I spent the day at three different skatepark sessions.During 'round two' I fell from the top of a ramp right on to my left hip...no pads,no break in the fall...right into the asphalt.
I was sort of nursing it,when I walked to where my buddies were inside another building.Right as I was about to 'brag' about my spectacular fall,one of them (age 44) fell right into the pool on HIS hip! from higher,and much harder!!!
He got up and laughed,immediately attempted the same trick and was fine.I shut up about my hip and subsequently have had zero ill effect.In fact,in skateboarding culture,whining about a fall is sort of frowned upon because everybody has them every day.
I see kids skating with casts on their arms...real broken bones!!
Only breaks and true black and blue trauma is given any sympathy...and only a smidge.
It is a cultural/psychosocial phenomenon...people who think themselves fragile ,are.
People who think themselves indestructible, are.
Most people expect whiplash,and they get it.
-piggy
Baseball65 |
| marytabby |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 02:41:31
So if it's an excuse to start up TMS, that supposes that ALL people involved in accidents who have whiplash have TMS. That's where I get confused. Because many people get whiplash but don't get TMS. That's the part where I get befuddled. |
| yowire |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 19:38:10
Maryalma8 wrote:
quote:
Now, I have read all the TMS books, and I understand that whiplash is an epidemic in the US, whereas in other countries it's unheard of, so Sarno supposes it's a secondary gain conditioned response.
Hi Maryalma8,
I think you may be referring to a study that Dr. Sarno cites on page 91 of Mindbody Prescription. Therein he mentions an article from the British medical journal Lancet where a doctor reported that there was an explosion of chronic whiplash cases in Norway, but in Lithuania it was unknown. The Norwegian doctors concluded that the patients were motivated by the desire for compensation which was providied in Norway but not in Lithuania. Dr. Sarno disagrees and states that the Doctors mistakenly assumed secondary gain because they were unaware of TMS.
Dr. Sarno states that "People will unconsciously choose symptoms that are in vogue and considered legitimate physical disorders by their doctors....."
The citation does not mention whether whiplash is considered legitimate by doctors in Lithuania or if it is a disorder that is well known in the general public of Lithuania. These factors would be needed to determine the exact relationship to the situation in Norway.
quote:
But if it's not whiplash, meaning, if it's not a temporary physical condition, what exactly causes it in a physiological sense?
Dr. Sarno states on the subject of whiplash "Here is a situation I see over and over with TMS: Physical incidents like the hit-from-behind accident, a slip or fall, doing physical work, engaging in a sport, and repetitive work motions are used by the brain as excuses to start up TMS."
Yowire |
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