| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| leegold |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 16:25:42
FYI-went to sarno's group follow up last night in nyc. he told a story of a woman that he treated 30 yrs ago who was so bad w/ tms that she was getting morphine shots every 4 hrs round the clock.
she was admitted to the hosp (as ins paid for it back then), and after he and the psych worked with her for a while, she showed up in his office one morning and said her pain was gone and that she hadnt had any morphine shots for a while. sarno said she had NO withdrawal symptoms, ever.
thats when he said he learned that "physical" addiction to drugs is a psychosomatic reaction like tms and NOT physical withdrawal. he said to the group not ever to worry about being physically addicted to the narcotics because it isnt true.
wow! thats just as "out there" according to the medical community as his tms theory is- but we know who is correct!
Lee
A tranquil heart is life to the body, but passion is rottenness to the bones |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| julia mann |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 14:44:34
Yes I have been thorugh hell (and twice for my sins) coming off Effexor (venlafaxine, antidepressant). However, my doctor seemed very surprised by my reactions which were very severe even after shaving a corner off my tablet every week! From personal experience I would say that these symptoms are real but as I am a TMS person then perhaps that is why I get them so bad?!
Anyway - what does 'real' actually mean? All TMS symptoms are real, they are just rooted in the brain and not the body. The body is just the expression of what is going on in the brain.
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| drziggles |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 19:19:57
Everyone's personal stories are really fascinating. It's amazing what some of you have gone through!
Clearly, there are many facets to drug dependence. Tobacco is a great example--some people quit cold turkey after many years, other people can't go a few hours without sweats, anxiety, and irritability. I think that besides the emotional aspects, there are probably, no make that definitely, genetic or hard-wired aspects to dependence as well. They say that nicotine is as an addictive a substance as heroin, yet some people just stop!
I can't argue with some of your personal experiences about quitting benzos or opiates, but I've seen some horror stories...hell, have you ever talked to people coming off of SSRIs (especially Paxil)? Withdrawal symptoms are real, though it's clear that individuals differ in which ones they get, if any... |
| Laura |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 12:10:32
Reading this thread I couldn't help but be reminded of something I read in a book about neurolinguistic programming. The author (who based his work on the work of Bandler and Grinder - Neurolinguistic Programming pioneers) told about soldiers who overcame morphine addictions. I've pulled the book out, so that I can quote from it word for word. The doctor who wrote this book tells how the soldiers were "treated for their wounds and administered morphine for the pain. The wounds healed but the soldiers became morphine addicts." He goes on to say "Some very curious researchers thought, 'Why don't we do with the patients what Pavlov did with the dog?' However, instead of ringing a bell these researchers would rub the patient's forearm and at the same time they would inject the morphine. Rubbing the forearm was the bell...They would rub the patient's forearm and at the same time they would inject the morphine. Now they only did that four or five times and then they started reducing the amount of morphine. Eventually, they threw the needle away and when the patients needed morphine they would simply rub the patient's forearm and the patient's body would remember enough of the pain killing experience that the soldier's were cured of their addiction. They had no withdrawal symptoms that normally accompany morphine withdrawal. They had no aggravation, no irritability or depression. The soldier's like Pavlov's dogs, used no will power, no positive thinking, no visualization, no psychotherapy..."
I don't know a whole lot about drug addiction - I'm a drug phobic myself and don't even like to take so much as a Tylenol - but I believe that the mindbody connection is so powerful, anything is possible. Of course, I know nothing about all the drugs you all have mentioned here - frankly, drugs scare the heck out of me. I just thought of this story I had read when I read this string and thought I'd add my two cents. Obviously, if some of you have been addicted to these different types of potent drugs then you know more about it than me. But it does seem very plausible that one could overcome just about anything with the power of the mind...
I do know of my own experience with both cigarette smoking and alcohol. When I was 14 years old, I started smoking to "be cool" and fit in with some kids at school. I smoked for 13 years, and one day I just said "enough" and I quit - no withdrawal symptoms, nothing, just quit cold turkey and never went back. Cigarette smoke makes me sick to be around it. A couple years ago, I found that I was really enjoying drinking wine and looked forward to doing so every evening. Since alcoholism runs in my family (my dad's father) I decided one day that this was becoming a habit and that I needed to stop that as well. I do enjoy an occasional glass of wine, but that's about it.
Laura
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| n/a |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 11:34:38
I took codeine phosphate for around two years - prescribed. One doctor put it on repeat prescription for me and from then on nobody seemed to check what I was doing. I just phoned up the surgery - automated ordering system and picked up my prescription at the desk - however often I wanted.
I was initially prescribed it for IBS (TMS I know now), but when the back pain kicked in and the IBS disappeared, I just carried right on with the codeine. It got to the point that I could not get out of the house in the morning without 30mg of codeine.
The upshot of this was, I moved house and registered with a new practice - my new GP wasn't having any of it - he said I'd have to stop the codeine and he would book me an appointment with a pain specialist for the back pain.
I went home from the surgery and decided to destroy all the codeine tablets. I crushed them up and mixed them with bulb compost before I put them in the bin, just to make sure that I wouldn't be tempted to get them out again.
I was fine that night, but during the next day, which was the first day back at work after the school summer break, I started to shiver and shake, panic and was hurting all over. By the time I got home I was vomiting and have never felt so bad in my whole life - I honestly thought I was going to die.
This went on for nearly a week - by which time, I had been prescribed low dose valium - which I consider was a bit of a life saver for me. It got the 'horrors' under control. I took it for around seven months and weaned off it - no problem at all.
I'll never know now - how much, if any of the awful symptoms were psychosomatic., but I'd advise anyone considering going on codeine to be very, very careful.
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| art |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 09:14:08
As always, fascinating contri baseball...
I've also kicked benzo's: I had a several years long addiction to xanax/ I can tell you that withdrawal nearly destroyed me. It took me years...that's years...to begin to feel anywhere near normal again. It utterly devastated me on every plane and dimension imaaginable...I'm a pretty bright guy, but the first IQ tests I took after a two week detox were in the sub-normal range, meaning below 100...so low in fact, compared with my "pre-morbid functioning" that they diagnosed "organicity," in other words brain damage.
When Dr. Sarno writes of the extraordinary healing powers of the human body (and mind I would add), he ain't just whistling dixie...
But anyone out there contemplating taking drugs with the idea that withdrawl is psychosomatic, I'd think again..
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 08:15:27
Sorry...I cut that post short(schoolbusdad)
When I was addicted to Morphine and Xanax with the occasional vicodin or twenty,I had a BITCH of a time kicking.I would try,but around noon every muscle in my body would cramp up and I felt like I had a bad flu...every now and than I made it to 3 or 4 PM,but it inevitably led to More abuse,not a tapering off.Than,after being seperated from it in a detox, I only lasted 15 days (of mental and physical HELL before I was back on the Juice.
..However,I also remember taking Valium all the time while I was seeing a counselour about my Narcotic addiction.He asked if I abused any other drugs.I told him I had been taking about 50 mgs of Valium a day,but had run out and just never got any more.He was astonished and told me that benzo addiction was far worse than even Heroin as regards withdrawals.It was a few years later that I had the worst 'kick' of my life(Morphine,Hydro,Perco,Xanax,Valium,restoril,steroids and the occasional 5th of bourbon)
A girl who was slammin' 500bucks a day worth of Heroin was feeling bad for ME! She was OK after about 3 days(on Buprenorphine which is another story).,..I went into a seizure.The on-duty nurse called the supervising Md and asked what to do.The Doc said if I got really bad,to call 911.Where would they have taken me? I was already in Detox(LOL!!) 
I wonder if that Counselour 'planting' that notion in my brain had anything to do with the horrible kick???? Sarno has opened my mind to a lot of things I might have considered silly in the past.I'm not going to go get strung again to find out,but there is probably some sort of psychological component,because just like Back Pain,the severity of the WD's varies substantially amongst Dope fiends with a similar habit.
There is a new 'miracle' drug out called Subutex/Suboxone for people who are addicted to Narcotics.It occupies the opiate receptors in the Brain and prevents the addict from going into extreme withdrawals.Unlike Methadone,it cannot be abused.
Morphine,Heroin,Hydrocodone,Oxy,and Methadone etc. are all Opiate Agonists...they occupy the opiate receptors in the brain and basically 'throw the door open'...thus that Magical feeling of being Gowed out of your mind.
Buprenorphine(subutex,suboxone) is an opiate ANTagonist and also occupies the receptor.It actually blocks any other opiates from having any effect whatsoever on the addicts system,thus the receptor is stimulated(denying the withdrawal effect ,depression,illness,etc) but blocking any further abuse.A person on Subutex could shoot a 100 dollar bag of Heroin and feel nothing.
However,UNlike opiates,the human body LOSES tolerance to Buprenorphine.....an addict might start at 28-32mgs a day to feel OK,but in a week that dose will make them ill,so they DROP their dosage by 4 mgs.The body notifies the person by giving them withdrawal symptoms(fatigue,Nausea,headache)
Eventually they work themselves down to about 2-4 mgs a day....some taper off altogether,some take it as prevention maintainance against further abuse...one can NOT abuse Narcotics with any amount of Sub/Bup in their body.
This has been being used in Europe for about 30 years as a viable alternative to Methadone(which any dope fiend knows you can get high on...I know )
The U.S. only recently approved it and it has been a miracle drug for anybody who is addicted toNarcotics and REALLY wants to quit.
I know....I did.
Just a little FYI.
-out
Baseball65 |
| moose1 |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 07:20:53
I certainly hope he wasn't referring to hardcore drugs like heroin. Years ago I had the misfortune of seeing several friends get dope sick from heroin, and there's no way you could convince me that their physical symptoms were emotionally induced.
Moose |
| art |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 06:48:30
The symptoms of narcotic withdrawal have been well-known for hundreds of years and across many cultures. They are just too consistent..to specific...and too weird actually.. for me to believe that addicts are somehow dreaming them up...
Here I draw the line. |
| leegold |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 06:24:06
wow- i didnt realize this would cause such a stir- i just thought it would be encouraging to those who need painkillers at this time to deal w/ the tms.
baseball65: he specifically talked about morphine, vicodin, oxycodone, etc and not benzos. i myself have had issues with withdrawals from benzodiazapenes and at one time, beta-blockers, but never had a prob narcotics. i also, at that time, never had sarno and had tms and equivalents for 30 yrs+ back then, so who knows what would happen if i had to withdraw again now.
drziggles- dr sarno was specifically talking about morphine, codeine, etc- i do not know if he feels the same way about alcohol or other drugs. i am not a doctor, and i dont even play one on tv, but arent there tms people who are so bad that they are bedridden 24/7? i would think if i saw them i wouldnt ever doubt that they had a severe physical problem. if the mind can do this, cant it also do the severe withdrawal thing also (poss to try and get you back on the substance so the emotions are still avoided)?
i certainly am not trying to be controversial or pass on dangerous mis-information, but im just passing on what dr sarno himself said that i heard with my own ears (whether he is correct or not). it also seems that if our mind firmly believes something it WILL be our experience and truth for us, and EVERYONE hears the info 'out there' about addiction to substances.
i see dr sarno as a fish swimming upstream in the medical community of downstream-swimmers (with tms theory which is correct); maybe he is correct here also- again im not a doc and i only know what ive personally experienced and heard.
Lee
A tranquil heart is life to the body, but passion is rottenness to the bones |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 05:50:56
I would agree AND disagree.I have two conflicting experiences with withdrawal,and they are contradictory in nature.
One was after years of abuse and was a tale of body aches,shaking,projectile vomiting and a seizure that frightened even the 'tech' who was on shift in the rehab.
After I read HBP,I simply threw all the painkillers in the trash and that was that.
I suppose it would also be relevant to acknowledge which 'painkillers' we're talking about.I have heard more and more that Narcotic withdrawal is mostly psychological.Benzodiazapin WD on the other hand can be fatal
Baseball65 |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 02:52:37
I'm not sure that it's a good idea to go down this very contentious road - it may well be the case that many drug withdrawal symptoms are psychosomatic, but surely it's not worth the risk to treat potentially addicting substances as substances that can be stopped easily if you have the belief that they can be discontinued with no adverse physical effects?
Way too risky in my opinion.
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| polly |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 20:43:03
drziggles,
I have read and relished your input here. I consider you a very brave man. But, what leegold says and relates is true.
In April I had to have my hip replaced. I had been misdiagnosed for 4 yrs. and had a serious problem. As the surgeon (a really wonderful man) said "it was mush...I scraped the joint out of there." I'd developed avascular necrosis.
While I was being misdiagnosed and in agony I was given very powerful meds. For starters, I was on 100mg. a day of oxycontin. My digestive system was shot, I felt awful and it didn't even help the pain that much. The surgeon and my GP were concerned about the amount of medication I was on and what we would have to do after the surgery to wean me.
The day of the surgery was the first day I DIDN'T have any pain. The soreness from the surgery was nothing after what I'd been through. I was put on a morphine pump anyway because of my history. I asked and it was removed after about 10 hrs. I had my copy of MBP with me in the hospital and I was convinced that I could stop taking painkillers and not go into withdrawal. It's a deal I made with my brain. The day after was even better. I took a few percocet that day. I went home on day 4 with a cane and a prescription for Vicodin. I took as little as I could, some days nothing at all. I never went into withdrawal. I was walking without any aid in less than 2 weeks. My body began to function "regularly" for the first time in 2 yrs. That's how long I'd been on the oxycontin. I used to feel so guilty even writing here when I needed so much medication to get through the day.
It is now 4 months. I worried about the drug dependence more than the surgery. I told myself that I could and would get off the drugs. I'm 100% positive that my TMS work did the trick.
I'm not saying this is good for everybody to try. I'm not an idiot and I fully understand what happens to people when they abruptly stop opiates. It didn't happen to me though and I fully believe it's becuase I went to Sarno, wrote him before the surgery and followed what I learned about taking control of my body and pain. I just KNOW that what we're doing with dealing with pain thru following what Sarno has started is just the tip of the iceberg.
Again, your input is always wonderful.
Polly |
| art |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 20:13:53
To tell you the truth, I don't like hearing this...I simply do not believe that it's true. Going forward, it will make the battle for faith in TMS just that much harder..
It's an ongoing struggle as it is. |
| drziggles |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 19:28:34
As a physician (and diehard Sarno believer) I have to disagree with the above info about drug dependence. All you have to see is someone in an intensive care unit for weeks (or even to die) from alcohol withdrawal (for example) and you would never doubt it.
Sure, there is a strong emotional component to drug dependence, but certain drugs can have strong physical withdrawal symptoms, opiates being one of them. |
| Calvin |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 18:13:08
quote:
thats when he said he learned that "physical" addiction to drugs is a psychosomatic reaction like tms and NOT physical withdrawal. he said to the group not ever to worry about being physically addicted to the narcotics because it isnt true.
I like this idea. My doctor prescribed me painkillers (for an elective surgery performed) but the first thing he said was, "be careful, this is very addicting".
This had a profound effect on me and I wound up suffering needlessly because I worried about the addictive effect those meds would've had on me. |
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