| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| LuvtoSew |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 15:51:47
I'm a little confused. It kinda sounds like TMS is a
medical condition like Fibromyalgia. What is the
difference? Thanks |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| yowire |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 19:27:24
Thanks for posting that AnneG.
Another terrific book on this subject is "Hystories" by Elaine Showalter. In this book, she discusses the reasons for the spread of hysterical epidemics past and present including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia.
This issue is so important. There is an old saying that goes something like this "If you don't know your history you are doomed to repeat it". This is what we, as TMS sufferers, all have done in regards to medical history. Much of the blame can be put on the medical community who should know this history, but patients are equaly to blame for insisting that their maladies cannot be psychological in nature.
I implore those who are having difficulty believing the TMS diagnosis to read both Shorter's "From Paralysis to Fatigue" and Showalter's "Hystories". These books have helped solidify the diagnosis for me. They demonstrate that these epidemics are caused by the unconscious mind and change according to the current medical paradigm and prevailing culture. When they are not in vogue any more, they disappear.
Applying physical sounding names such as Fibromyalgia in the US and Myalgic Encyephalomyelitis in Great Britain to these current syndromes only perpetuates the problem.
All patient complaints should be taken seriously, but when no organic cause can be found than it is time to look at emotional reasons for the symptoms. As TMS advocates, we must promote the fact that there is no shame in this. The symptoms are real.
Now, with Dr. Sarnos's TMS theory we have a way to truly end these epidemics which cause so much pain and interrupt so many lives.
Yowire
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| n/a |
Posted - 09/02/2005 : 02:41:01
You all might find this interesting. In the chapter titled, 'Somatization at the end of the Twentieth Century,' from Edward Shorter's book, 'From Paralysis to Fatigue', he writes about fibromyalgia thus -
"From a grab bag of scattered bodily pains, fibrositis (or fibromyalgia as some preferred to call it after the muscle inflammation had failed to materialize) passed to being a specific disease. 'The features are now well recognised,' wrote one of its advocates in 1989, 'the most important and common being generalized pain, fatigue and disturbance of sleep.' There might also be headaches and bowel problems. Four-fifths of the patients are women.
Fibrositis accordingly became the fourth template for 'chronic fatigue syndrome'. The penny began to drop as it was realized that the above mentioned symptoms also characterized Epstein-Barr Virus, myalgic encyephalomyelitis, and all the other diseases of fashion. This awareness dawned in both the camp of the medical skeptics and that of the patient advocates. Among the skeptics, Thomas Bohr, a neurologist then at the school of medicine at Stanford University, questioned the existance of the whole fibrositis (fibromyalgia) syndrome. 'There simply has never been good evidence for it as a syndrome distinct from affective disorders.' He scoffed at enthusiasts' use of the 'dolorimeter' - a spring loaded device that applies given pressures to predetermined 'tender points' - to confirm the diagnosis. 'as if this quasi-scientific device supports the existence of anything other than plain old aches and pains. Any medical student knows that using a stethoscope does not take the subjectivity out of auscultation (listening with a stethoscope). Bohr considered fibromyalgia to be a form of depression. Simon Wessely thought fibromyalgia a form of chronic fatigue: 'The distinction between fibromyalgia and CFS is largely arbitrary, and both overlap with affective disorder.' After studying a group of forty patients with the diagnosis of fibrositis, a group of Israeli researchers concluded that the condition was a well-delineated psychiatric ailment in which childhood deprivation caused depression later in life, depression presenting primarily as pain."
This chapter in the book provides a fascinating look at the spread of the 'diseases of fashion' as Shorter calls them. He outlines how the media has played a huge part in spreading them - he gives numerous examples, almost all of which encourage people not to accept the possibility that their disease is psychological in origin.
After reading Shorter's book, I realized that those of us who post here and have found relief at last from the awful symptoms that plagued us - are extremely lucky, because for every Dr Sarno and Edward Shorter there are literally hundreds and hundreds of other writers pushing us to the other side.
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| Jim1999 |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 22:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by DebbieG
I haven’t read Dr. Nancy Selfridge's book "Freedom From Fibromyalgia” yet. I did hear that she also suffered from FMS. I hope that she and the co-author did expand on Dr. Sarno’s theory. I am very interested in the emotion aspect of this disorder. I just am not a fan of his ‘mild oxygen deprivation’ theory but I do believe that there may be biochemical changes that occur in the brain, the nervous system (the autonomic nervous system) and the muscular system that are responsible for FMS & chronic pain in addition to depression.
"Freedom from Fibromyalgia" does talk about theories of what causes fibromyalgia, in that it discusses the results of traditional medical research. In my opinion, "Freedom" does not have a well-developed theory like Dr. Sarno does.
From what I've seen, though, most Sarno fans are not very concerned about theory. Instead, the most common complaint is that Sarno's books are too theoretical. By contrast, "Freedom" is very practical, with many techniques for dealing with emotions. It might have more things to try than any other TMS book on the market right now.
quote:
Originally posted by DebbieG
I have found that my physical pain is actually causing me to become still (quiet) and listen to what my body, my mind and my emotions have to say not to ‘distract’ me as Dr. Sarno theorizes. My physical, mental and emotional pain has taught me so much about life and about God. It is truly an opportunity for growth in many ways!
This is the view taken by David Mickel MBChB MRCGP in the UK. He claims that the unconscious mind is creating the symptoms to draw attention to the emotional issues.
Jim |
| Jim1999 |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 22:36:11
Eileen,
The passage I dislike is on pages 21-22: quote:
If someone could figure out which one or more of the biochemical messengers that are responsible for pain was the rogue causing fibromyalgia,they might develop pills that guarantee coping or curing....John E Sarno, M.D., didn't wait around for biochemists to sort out which particular malfunctions create back pain.
I added the bolding to emphasize the message here that fibromyalgia is chemical in origin. This is the section I object to.
Jim |
| DebbieG |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 22:35:47
Hi Laura,
There was a time a few years ago when my symptoms were greatly aggravated and I was experiencing severe headaches, migraines, dizziness and lightheadedness. I even blacked out for a few seconds on a few occasions. The diagnosis with TOS--‘thoracic outlet syndrome’ which is a compression of the brachial plexus nerve and the inner jugular vein in my neck/shoulder due to the severe muscle spasms from my injury. The compression interfered in the blood flow in my brain and may have been responsible for some of the headaches, migraines and blackouts. I didn’t have any balancing problems but I did have a concern when I went on walks. In time, the muscle spasms subsided and now I am left with the headaches and muscle pain which unfortunately has spread throughout my body. I just finished reading Dr. Sarno’s “The Mindbody Prescription” and I see that he also views TOS as a TMS ‘equivalent.’
I really don’t like labels myself but it is a ‘diagnosis’ in which doctors & research groups can focus on and perhaps find out what the cause is to all these symptoms which FMS/TMS patients experience. It is also a basis where one can find out information and read up on their studies about this ‘phenomena.’ Believe me I am not one to jump on anyones bandwagon or to march to someone else’s tune.
I haven’t read Dr. Nancy Selfridge's book "Freedom From Fibromyalgia” yet. I did hear that she also suffered from FMS. I hope that she and the co-author did expand on Dr. Sarno’s theory. I am very interested in the emotion aspect of this disorder. I just am not a fan of his ‘mild oxygen deprivation’ theory but I do believe that there may be biochemical changes that occur in the brain, the nervous system (the autonomic nervous system) and the muscular system that are responsible for FMS & chronic pain in addition to depression. There are so many things that we don’t know about the brain, hormones, biochemistry (neuropeptides), the nervous system and pain itself.
Like you, I was very frustrated & confused with my symptoms until I saw that that frustration was only adding fuel to the fire. I can see in my own personal experience that my symptoms greatly vary from day to day, week to week and month to month. I have experienced many, many ‘manifestations’ and at this point I just accept it and I try to concentrate on the emotion issues that surface from it. I have found that my physical pain is actually causing me to become still (quiet) and listen to what my body, my mind and my emotions have to say not to ‘distract’ me as Dr. Sarno theorizes. My physical, mental and emotional pain has taught me so much about life and about God. It is truly an opportunity for growth in many ways!
I wish you luck in finding help and relief for your pain & symptoms. Hang in there and use this time to do a lot of reading & research which will help you understand this disorder and also to help you make the necessary changes in your life which may lessen your pain. Be careful what people tell you. I found that there are a lot of people who really don’t know what they are talking about. Take Care. Deb
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| EileenTM |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 23:11:43
My impression is that the authors say that fibromyalgia is definitely caused by repressed emotions. These repressed emotions then cause chemical changes in the brain that result in increased pain,insomnia, mood disturbances, tinnitus, etc. etc. They call it a cascade of negative chemicals. In fact, Dr. Sopher says a similar thing in his chapter on mood disorders. He says that in addition to decreased oxygen, he thinks TMS may cause neurochemical changes which explains why mood disorders may also accompany some cases of back pain. It all starts with those pesky repressed emotions!! |
| Jim1999 |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 22:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by EileenTM
You might really benefit from reading Dr. Nancy Selfridge's book "Freedom From Fibromyalgia." She and her co-author both suffered from it. They learned from Dr. Sarno and then put together a more complete plan to recover based on the idea that fibro is a severe form of TMS. They suggest that the symptoms are the result of biochemical changes in the brain that result in pain, depression, fuzzy thinking, insomnia, etc. It sounds, too like you can trace your symptoms to a major stress event, something they say is common with fibro. Good luck. It sounds like you have an open mind to new ideas.
I also think that "Freedom" has a lot of potential. The fibromyalgia patient I mentioned above liked this book better than "Healing Back Pain", because "Freedom" is more practical. She recovered in 5 weeks. This is the time span listed in the subtitle. I should point out that not everyone recovers that quickly, but it's good to see that some do.
One thing I don't like about the book is that the authors can't seem to consistently say that fibromyalgia is psychological in origin. In one place, they say that it is chemical in origin. Oh, well. No book is perfect.
Jim |
| yowire |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 19:03:37
quote:
Jim1999 wrote:
In the US, fibro is currently diagnosed by symptoms plus a tender point test. Even if your symptoms match fibro perfectly, you need the tender points to get the diagnosis.
On the tender point diagnosis of Fibromyalgia. From my understanding, one has to have something like 11 of the 18 tender points to be diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. Am I crazy or is this one of the silliest things you've ever heard? What if you have 9 or 10 or even 6? Does this mean that you're OK? Or is there some other diagnosis you get? Its absurd.
Clearly, the name Fibromyalgia should be dropped in favor of Tension Myositis Syndrome.
Yowire |
| Laura |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 11:25:23
Eileen,
I've been meaning to get that book for awhile. Thanks for the reminder.
Jim,
Thanks for the info.
Debbie,
Thanks for taking a few moments to answer my questions. I wondered, do you ever suffer from balance problems/dizziness/lightheadedness? That has been the one thing that I focus on the most. From reading everything I have about fibromyalgia (which makes sense that it could be a severe form of TMS), I have just about every symptom. My naturopathic friend told me that I shouldn't attach myself to a label and not to think I have "fibromyalgia." He says "Remember, fibromyalgia is a name given to a group of symptoms that doctors can't figure out so they lump them together and give it a name. Do not attach yourself to that diagnosis or that name." I don't know...All I know is, I have all the tender points, brain fog, insomnia, balance problems, and more.
I hope you continue to make good progress on your own, and again, thanks for responding.
Laura
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| EileenTM |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 10:35:30
You might really benefit from reading Dr. Nancy Selfridge's book "Freedom From Fibromyalgia." She and her co-author both suffered from it. They learned from Dr. Sarno and then put together a more complete plan to recover based on the idea that fibro is a severe form of TMS. They suggest that the symptoms are the result of biochemical changes in the brain that result in pain, depression, fuzzy thinking, insomnia, etc. It sounds, too like you can trace your symptoms to a major stress event, something they say is common with fibro. Good luck. It sounds like you have an open mind to new ideas. |
| DebbieG |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 00:25:39
Laura,
Unfortunately, I had a work related injury five years ago which I really don’t wish to go into. Looking back, I can see how the fibro ‘evolved’ into myofascial pain then spun out of control to where it is today—widespread pain from head to toe. I have just about all the fibro symptoms one could have in addition to lower back disc pain, TOS (thoracic outlet syndrome), joint pain, sciatica, and migraines. It is an awful existence and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone even my worst enemy.
Insomnia is a big problem too. I understand that REM sleep is very important for people with chronic pain so I take Ambien but it doesn’t last long for me. I find that if I don’t get a good night sleep my pain and depression increases. Ambien doesn’t make you drowsy the next day. I hear that there is another sleep medication available that may be better—a ‘next generation’ med but I haven’t tried it yet.
I am trying to stay away from doctors right now. I hope to regain some peace of mind and try to calm things down myself & lessen my pain. So far it is working. I feel that they can not help me at this point. In fact, they only seem to cause me more anxiety especially if you are trapped in the workman’s comp system which is a complete nightmare. I believe the rest of my recovery is up to me which includes a new lifestyle and a new way of dealing with everyday life situations and stress. I have dumped most of the medications due to side effects—they were making me sick.
I saw two of the best rheumatologists in the LA/Beverly Hills area who are very active in the medical community and at the university involving chronic pain. There is no blood test for fibro. There are no tests of any kind that can detect it or any abnormality that may contribute to it. This is why the medical community has for the most part as rejected fibromyalgia as a disorder. Not too many doctors know much about chronic pain especially the old dinosaurs. Doctors usually rely on palpating 18 “Tender Points” which are located at specific areas of the body along with other symptomlogy and the patient’s complaints for a diagnosis. Of course we are talking about chronic pain (more than 3 months) not acute pain. Symptoms do fluctuate daily, even hourly and there is a scale of minor to severe fibro.
I do believe, from what I have read so far, that Dr. Sarno is on to something worth looking into in regards to an emotional aspect which may contribute to chronic pain and other physical manifestations. I know that my own emotions and anger do play a role in increasing my pain. So I am really looking into this aspect (sources of rage & stress) to see how I can lessen or eliminate the ones I have control over. I do have a lot of anger brewing inside but other people do too. Everyone has problems, anger, stress and a screwed up childhood.
Maybe this is why some suffer from cancer, others arthritis, others from heart problems and such. Maybe all of our dis-eases and dis-orders are due to an “emotional phenomena” involving stress, anger & rage which manifested into physical disorders and diseases. I know that the life-expectancy rate wasn't high in my career and stress is assumed as the cause. I believe that Fibro may be an ‘extreme case’ of what Dr. Sarno calls TMS but I am not sure if I believe that the symptoms are due to “mild oxygen deprivation.” I do believe that something is not physically right, that perhaps there may be some physiological changes in the brain, muscles and/or in the nerves (nociceptive system: nerve pathways, pain perception and sensory terminals) that the medical community hasn’t detected yet which changed through time as the pain grew—similar to rewiring but for pain not to bypass pain. I do see this as being a global “epidemic” and I hope that one day the medical community will take it more seriously soon because it is very painful & destructive and it is a real issue that needs to be fully researched.
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| Jim1999 |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 22:11:36
quote:
Originally posted by Laura
Also, how do doctors diagnose fibro? Do they simply put together all of the symptoms or is there a blood test or what?
In the US, fibro is currently diagnosed by symptoms plus a tender point test. Even if your symptoms match fibro perfectly, you need the tender points to get the diagnosis. There is no laboratory test that is used for fibro, but such tests are often used to rule out other diagnoses which have similar symptoms to fibro.
Jim |
| Jim1999 |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 21:52:10
DebbieG,
Yeah!
Maryalma8,
Like Debbie, I was very disappointed by your original posting. Yes, I'm aware that the posting only referred to "some" fibromyalgia patients. That's why I felt the posting was somewhat offensive, rather than completely offensive.
The fact is that you said that fibro patients "often have a secondary gain". Often? What evidence do you have? Besides your sister-in-law, how many fibro patients have you talked to?
I'm active in the on-line fibro community. I just don't see the evidence that fibro patients are unusually prone to secondary gain. The attitude in your posting is exactly the type of thing that will make fibro groups more hostile to Dr. Sarno's ideas.
You also seem to be implying that fibro patients are less willing to accept a psychological cause than other patients with TMS-related diagnoses. What evidence do you have of that? In the real world, I've seen the exact opposite. The one fibro patient I told about Sarno was immediately interested and made a complete recovery. The patients with structural diagnoses continue to insist that their pain has a physical cause. Some of these patients have been resisting Sarno for six years.
Granted, my real world contacts are a very small sample, so I shouldn't read too much into it. It's still enough to make me doubt your conclusions.
Jim |
| Laura |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 11:40:51
Debbie,
If you don't mind my asking, what are the fibro symptoms that you suffer from? I have looked at the list of fibromyalgia symptoms and I've got about 99% of them. The most debilitating ones are the dizziness and insomnia. I haven't slept well in a few months - up several times a night and the sleep I get is not good. Just curious what your symptoms are. Also, how do doctors diagnose fibro? Do they simply put together all of the symptoms or is there a blood test or what?
I really do believe that fibro is an extreme case of TMS. Perhaps it is a "higher level of repressed emotions, primarily anger." I've sure got a deep pool of repressed anger, that's for sure!!!
I'm glad you found Dr. Sarno and the TMS forum and I'm glad your symptoms are improving and you are healing.
Laura
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| marytabby |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 09:36:08
My point in my posting was that SOME people, like my relative, use Fibro as a secondary gain. Perfect example, I offered all the Sarno books to read and she definitely uses fibro as an excuse not to work. She does NOT want to get better. Sarno says that some people do use secondary gain reasons for not wanting to get better and I do believe that SOME fibro people, NOT ALL, I REPEAT OVER AGAIN, NOT ALL of them, but some use secondary gain reasons to not read the books and learn about TMS because they like being a victim. That's what I was saying. AGAIN, NOT ALL FIBRO PEOPLE, SOME OF THEM. |
| DebbieG |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 00:24:42
Dr. Sarno believes Fibromyalgia is a severe form of TMS. “Fibromyalgia is one of the ways TMS occurs. These patients are those who suffer the most severe conditions, having pain in many different muscles (throughout their entire body), insomnia, anxiety, depression and generalized fatigue…all these manifestations are interpreted as evidence of a higher level of repressed emotions, primarily anger.”
I have been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and I still find it hard to accept such a diagnosis as an explanation to my chronic pain which is out of control & widespread--from my head to my toes. After an injury, Fibro gradually made its appearance and eventually caused so much pain that I lost my career and all activities and believe me it was NOT by choice!
Fibro patients are in so much pain, that they cry out to the medical community in hope to find some relief because it is a devastating condition, with devastating losses—which many people who don’t have fibro can’t begin to understand. I am really disappointed in one of the postings in response to your question. No, people with Fibromyalgia have pain throughout their whole body unlike people with people with TMS who suffer from pain in a specific area (lower back or shoulder…). People with Fibromyalgia do have problems with sleep (getting to sleep, staying asleep, and returning to sleep after being woken by pain many times through the night…). Due to the level of pain and its destruction of one’s life there will be anxiety, anger and depression. On top of all that there is a fatigue factor which I have never experienced in my life even after two day athletic tournaments. All of these factors came as a surprise to me and believe me it wasn’t a choice!
There are many people out there with conditions other than fibro who use their conditions as an excuse to ‘get out of something.’ Everyone wants to get better. Not a lot of Fibromyalgia patients have heard of Dr. Sarno’s work (I somehow stumbled on it after 5 years of Fibro). Some people make more of an effort and are more open to new approaches then others. No doubt everyone needs some psychotherapy to get to the bottom of the underlying causes (envy, jealousy, resentment, anger, victimization…) because such emotions are not easily seen by the patient and everyone has them in some degree. Since such emotions may be the underlying cause then both TMS and Fibro patients can benefit from it. No one “wants to be a victim” and no one wants to be in pain especially widespread chronic pain. Chronic pain is a vicious cycle and a very difficult one to break. Some people just don’t know where to begin to reach out for help. Fibromyalgia zaps you of all your strength and your life. No joke here.
I have been reading Dr. Sarno’s books and I saw his video which was very helpful (your library may have it). I am not painfree yet but I am working on it and I realize it will take lots of effort & time. I don’t think it is wise to generalize people with a “common delineator” full of judgment & resentment and I don’t think this is the place for that stuff. I believe that the lesson for any chronic medical condition is compassion, empathy, support and maturity not judgment & resentment.
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| n/a |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 12:08:40
Also read Dr. Nancy Selfridge's book Freedom From Fibromyalgia." She and her co-author had Fibromyalgia but using Dr. Sarno's method they are now fully recovered. |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 09:02:06
quote:
Originally posted by LuvtoSew
I'm a little confused. It kinda sounds like TMS is a
medical condition like Fibromyalgia. What is the
difference? Thanks
Fibromyalgia is TMS, just a severe form.
Again, I suggest you read Dr. Sarno's book. You can't learn much by asking one question at a time. |
| marytabby |
Posted - 08/24/2005 : 07:42:24
I would like to add that Sarno says Fibro is a "severe form of TMS". What's interesting about Fibro is that many of these patients buy into the "disease" diagnosis, and often have a secondary gain by having the label Fibro attached to them. Perfect example is a relative of mine who, because she has "fibro, and poor pitiful me", she does not have to work. She gets to stay home all day and doesn't have to participate in family events, etc. and can say "I have reflux, or I have a headache" when she wants to get out of something. I'm not saying all fibro people do this but it's a common deliniator when comparing TMS people, who WANT to get better, to fibro people who again, a good number of them use the fibro label/diagnoses to their advantage. It may be that fibro sufferers have more work to do than TMS because it's such a severe form of TMS. So for example maybe there's more fibro people that should be in psychotherapy to get to the bottom of the underlying cause of it all. Like TMS'ers do when they can't get relief, they try therapy. Well, some fibro people will not accept that it's a psychosomatic cause, and want to be the victim. Others probably do accept the cause but they still run from rheumatologist to other specialist all the livelong day getting all kinds of pills to take away hundreds of symptoms. It's a vicious cycle that many do not break because they for some reason don't address the psyche. Again, I'm not saying ALL fibro people do this. I'm saying some do. |
| Jim1999 |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 20:38:42
LuvtoSew,
Based on your postings in this thread and in your "Can tms help pain from a herniated disc?" thread, it sounds like you think that TMS is a treatment. Actually, TMS is a medical diagnosis (or condition) invented by Dr. Sarno. TMS stands for Tension Myositis Syndrome.
He doesn't have a concise term to describe his treatment for TMS. Dr. Sarno does say that his treatment works for herniated disk and TMJ.
Jim |
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