| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ssjs |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 12:22:54
My 16 year old just came back from the oral surgeon, and he wants to practacally rip apart her face to solve her tmj problem. I am sure it is a tms thing.
He wants to break apart her jaw and realign the joint and give her braces and CHANGE HER FACE, and admits that it doesn't even always work!!!
I need more info about tmj being tms. if anyone knows how I can get more info so it will be more concrete to my now very frightened daughter, please let me know!
Sandy |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ssjs |
Posted - 07/14/2005 : 14:34:35
I certainly am a purist for myself. I am for her too...but what if she isn't!!! For her, if it takes a bit extra, who am I to complain if it works! |
| johnnyg |
Posted - 07/14/2005 : 13:30:58
Glad you got a laugh ssjs, that's got to be good, right?
Anyway, some on the board say TMJ is classic TMS. Since I have both TMJ and other TMS pain such as back and neck, I am definitely in the camp that beleives TMJ is actually a much more severe form of TMS, like fibromyalgia. This is why I fight it with additional therapies. Many here are TMS "purists" But I think the severe forms of TMS may need a little extra coaxing like relaxation, etc., or maybe in the end a good old fashioned lobotamy. |
| ssjs |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 14:46:51
...He discusses relaxation techniques to reduce the stress that causes the clenching or grinding. It's a reaction to the fight or flight response to stress. It's hard to believe that such a young girl would be under that much stress. She must be involved in a lot of activities. While I do believe it is TMS, I have benefitted greatly from the relaxation techniques because I have been able to keep the clenching under better control. From previous discussions, I doubt you'd be open to this, but I believe firmly that TMS patients with severe muscle tension (which is what TMJ is) can benefit from relaxation therapy along with TMS therapy of course....
Jonnyg...It made me laugh when you said you didn't think I would be open to relaxation therapy! For my daughter I would try anything that might make her better! But not breaking open her jaw!!! I know it is tms, but maybe I have learned something...maybe there are a few different ways to go about clearing that kind of thing up! I will check out your link. Just because I have been successful one way, doesn't mean that there arn't variations!
But I do not think she is so young to be under stress. Teen years can be very tuff, and she is a high acheiving type, but she does believe what I say about pain, and is actually feeling better! Anyway, I will check it out.
I am like a bear protecting its cub!!! Watch out!
Sandy |
| johnnyg |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 12:30:55
ssjs--I have TMJ. Before I learned about TMS, I went to the ear doctor because I had an ear ache and my face hurt, and I was clenching my teeth so hard, they were grinding down to nubs. They said I had TMJ since my hearing was normal and I told them I have a habit of jaw clenching. My dentist and the ear doctor even said it is stress induced and that there is no surgical procedure that can cure it. They gave me muscle relaxers and naproxen (didn't do crap). Anyone willing to do what your surgeon suggested is just plain nuts! And she's so young!
Check out Dr. Stoll's web site http://www.askwaltstollmd.com/relax.html
He discusses relaxation techniques to reduce the stress that causes the clenching or grinding. It's a reaction to the fight or flight response to stress. It's hard to believe that such a young girl would be under that much stress. She must be involved in a lot of activities. While I do believe it is TMS, I have benefitted greatly from the relaxation techniques because I have been able to keep the clenching under better control. From previous discussions, I doubt you'd be open to this, but I believe firmly that TMS patients with severe muscle tension (which is what TMJ is) can benefit from relaxation therapy along with TMS therapy of course. |
| ssjs |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 21:06:14
This is what I wanted to hear.
Anyway, I am so appalled by what this dentist said in fron of my daughter, that I am going to his office tomorrow and tell him how unprofesional he was and that I will be stopping my credit card payment since he certainly doesn't deserve a profesionals fee!
Sandy |
| n/a |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 19:30:26
On this topic Dr. Marc Sopher says in his book:
(Chapert 25, 26)
Chapter 25
MORE ABOVE THE NECK
There are some other pain syndromes or disorders causing other
unpleasant symptoms that involve the face, mouth and ears. I believe
all are TMS for they share certain features with TMS elsewhere in the
body:
1) Thorough medical evaluation fails to identify a significant
cause;
2) Treatment is unsuccessful;
3) Symptoms are chronic, either persistent or intermittent;
4) Symptoms are intrusive, providing distraction;
5) Symptoms resolve with TMS treatment.
To Be or Not To Be... Pain-Free
135
TRIGEMINAL NEURALGIA
Of those that I have encountered, the most bothersome and
disabling is trigeminal neuralgia, also known as tic doloreaux. The
trigeminal or fifth cranial nerve provides sensation to areas of the face
and teeth. With this disorder, patients experience brief episodes of
intense facial pain that may be described as sharp, stabbing or
burning. These episodes may recur over any time frame, causing
misery for the sufferer. Particularly puzzling is that precipitants seem
to include formerly benign actions, like opening the mouth, touching
the face, brushing teeth, etc. If ever a problem seemed to have a
psychological rather than physical basis, this is it. No physical cause
has been identified and various medications, injections and surgical
procedures rarely provide more than temporary relief. Some become
so despondent that they contemplate suicide. I’ve seen patients with
pain so severe they require hospital admission and administration of
intravenous morphine by patient-controlled analgesia (PCA), with
only partial relief despite extremely high doses of the narcotic.
Fortunately, trigeminal neuralgia is not common. I’ve had success
treating this and this case is illustrative. Janet had classic symptoms
of trigeminal neuralgia for several years when I first saw her. Prior
care for this had been with another family physician, neurologist, and
neurosurgeon. Oral medications including anticonvulsants (typically
used to treat seizure disorders, but often used for neuropathic pain
syndromes), steroids, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs
(NSAIDs) and narcotics had been prescribed. Injections and surgical
procedures involving the nerve failed. She was on high doses of
narcotics at her first visit with me, and acknowledged escalating
usage. Like many at first hearing of TMS, she was skeptical.
Desperate for help, she put aside her reluctance and read The
Mindbody Prescription by Dr. John Sarno and recognized herself in
those pages. Married with two small children, she was forced to work
outside of the home due to financial pressures. She acknowledged a
childhood that was at times very difficult and had little relationship
with her father. I helped her to wean off the narcotics and she has
remained pain-free for more than five years now.
Chapter 26
MOUTH
TMJ
Temporomandibular joint syndrome (TMJ) is pain that occurs at
the angle of the jaw, where the mandible (lower jaw bone) meets the
temporal bone. It is a hinge type of joint (like the elbow) and is used
for any activity that involves opening the mouth. Like any joint,
injury can result from trauma. Like any joint, healing should occur
within a brief time frame. Some cases of TMJ may be caused by
excessive teeth grinding (bruxism) or jaw-clenching during sleep,
which certainly qualifies as a type of dental trauma. Most dentists
recognize that stress is the cause for bruxism and jaw clenching and
share this with patients with routine success. Some do use a dental
appliance for a short time, but can discard it eventually. My
experience is that TMJ resolves most quickly when a psychological
cause is accepted.
BMS
You may not have heard of burning mouth syndrome (BMS) yet,
but I have no doubt that you will. It is gathering steam and I have no
doubt that it is a disorder with a psychological cause. The chief
complaint is of a burning sensation in the mouth, but some also
complain of a bitter or metallic taste. As with many TMS
equivalents, no cause is identified and treatment is infrequently
successful. The most commonly prescribed medication is a
benzodiazepine, like Klonopin. Any time that you learn that a
benzodiazepine is prescribed for a disorder, your radar should go up
and you should think “TMS” and psychological cause. Klonopin and
its cousins are tranquilizers, sedating substances that can cause
relaxation and reduce feelings of stress; unfortunately they do not fix
the problem, provide only temporary relief and can quickly become
habit-forming, no matter the reason for the original prescription.
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| ssjs |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 18:06:03
I am getting another opinion...but I also emailed Dr. Sarno, who I saw in 1985, or around then. I will not let them do this to her if I can help it, and suprise suprise, she said it hasn't hurt in a few days anyway.
By the way, her regular dentist was appalled at the way the oral surgeon handled it (he compared her to Jay Leno...I am telling you, she is a beautiful girl, and there is no comparison. Among other stupid remarks!)
Thanks to all of you who wrote.
Sandy |
| yowire |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 17:52:01
Laura, you'll have to forgive me for laughing at your dislocated jaw story, but it brought back many memories for me. My jaw would also become dislocated when eating large sandwiches or even just yawning. It feels like your face is broken in half. Painful too. I was diagnosed with TMJ and surgery was discussed. I decided to do nothing and am glad I did. Since discovering Sarno my whole face feels completely different. I can now yawn widely without fear of dislocation. The change has been amazing. It was TMS.
To ssjs,
I don't know the exact situation with your daughter, but if I were you I would hold off on the surgery until you investigate further.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was just TMS. |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 12:52:42
TMJ is classic TMS in my book. Personally I would run as fast as possible from that doctor.
I had an experience with a patient that I visited in the hospitol once that really stuck with me regarding TMJ. I was volunteering visiting patients and one such patient was having a hard time, feeling a lot of pain and being very scared. She told me that she was having pain and tightness in her jaw. I tried to validate her fears and told her that the pain and tightness were do to repressed emotion and encouraged her to let her guard down and feel. She burst into tears and let out the fear and sadness that she had blocked. Her symptoms disappeared immediately! |
| Laura |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 12:50:27
Sandy,
When I was about 8 years old, I was with my family visiting some friends who lived on a farm. My brother and I were out exploring and we climbed up to the roof of a building (a chicken coop!) When we saw someone coming (a relative of the family who was known to be very mean) we jumped off and I fell on the left side of my jaw. My jaw swelled up like a baseball and my brother brought me inside to where my mother and father looked at me, horrified. I remember my mother screaming "She's going to die," which provided little comfort to my young mind. Once at the hospital, nothing was done except an ice pack was placed on my jaw and the wound was cleaned (a cut that was bleeding). I was instructed not to chew for a couple of weeks and was only able to have liquids. This was in approximately 1967.
In 1984, I moved to California, "abandoning" my faith (Christianity) and my home (Michigan). Needless to say, it was a lot of guilt carrying that around. My husband (then fiance) and I moved in with his parents and things got so bad between us that I actually moved out for awhile with a friend and considered breaking off the engagement. Eventually, we got back together and got our own place and began planning our wedding. It was around this time that I started noticing jaw pain. I was 25 at the time. One day, while eating a large deli sandwich, my jaw dislocated. I went to a dentist who gave me a pain pill and put my jaw back in place (ouch!) I had a bite splint made as well, which I wore only at night. I was told that I was grinding my teeth so much I was polishing my own fillings. Well, of course I was. I was stressed out - feeling guilt from my parents, ambivalent about converting to Judaism and marriage, ambivalent about moving here to begin with, ambivalent about having no friends...
Many years later (when I was about 39) I started to develop tinnitus (ringing in the ears). I knew it was a symptom of TMJ so I read everything I could on TMJ, even buying a book called Taking Control of TMJ by a dentist named Dr. Upgard. He spoke about tinnitus and hearing problems in this book and how they were related to TMJ. I eventually saw a dentist down in Anaheim (over an hour away from me) who had me have all sorts of x-rays done. He claims he can cure TMJ problems through a surgery wherein he inserts a titanium piece in the jaw joint. He told me "And while we're in there, we'll pull the skin up and give you a mini face lift." Oh, my God! I ran out the door and drove home crying.
That's when I began seeing a chiropractor that was recommended to me by our massage therapist friend. There I received painful treatments that were supposed to loosen up the muscles and help with the TMJ. I was desperate, since the surgeon had scared the hell out of me.
Nothing worked. Eventually, while reading Dr. Sarno's book Mindbody Prescription, I noticed that talked about TMJ (page 78 and 79). You will notice Dr. Sarno says "Fibromyalgia, myofascial pain syndrome (MPS) and temperomandibular joint syndrome (TMJ) are often discussed together in the medical literature. I believe they are different manifestations of TMS. Dr. Sarno says "I have found that what is going on in the jaw muscles is similar to the TMS process in the back. Joint abnormalities are the result rather than the cause of the symptoms."
When I stopped fixating on my problems with my jaw then the pain and tinnitus disappeared. All I can tell you is my experience. Now, my friend just recently had a surgery done similar to what you describe but that is because she wanted to correct her jaw (I think they used an implant) and cosmetically give her a different look. I know they had to break the jaw and she had her mouth wired shut for the longest time. It was awful, but my friend has no regrets and wanted it done for cosmetic purposes. This does not sound like the case with your daughter. If she is in pain, have her read the book and help her that way. I believe Dr. Sarno is correct and I have no problems with my jaw anymore as a result of doing this work.
Good luck and sorry about the long post. I just wanted to give you the full story.
Laura
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